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Old 08-31-2009, 02:34 PM   #271
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Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
You haven't been paying attention.
Whether it works or not is should be irrelevant. It's barbaric and we as a country are should be better than that.
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Old 08-31-2009, 02:38 PM   #272
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Can you show me a quote?

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i oppose torture for a variety of reasons that i've outlined over the years in here, and one of those reasons is the fact that torture doesn't work because it gives you bad information. what's invalid about that position?
--Irvine511
pg 2 of this thread
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torture doesn't work. we know this.
--Irvine511
pg 3
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This would be nice if torture were proven to provide reliable intelligence. It hasn't. In fact, if anything has been proven it's that torture provides extremely unreliable intelligence.
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pg 8
I'm sure I could find more.
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Old 08-31-2009, 02:42 PM   #273
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the fact that torture doesn't work ...

Quote:
The debate over the effectiveness of subjecting detainees to psychological and physical pressure is in some ways irresolvable, because it is impossible to know whether less coercive methods would have achieved the same result. But for defenders of waterboarding, the evidence is clear: Mohammed cooperated, and to an extraordinary extent, only when his spirit was broken in the month after his capture March 1, 2003, as the inspector general's report and other documents released this week indicate.

Over a few weeks, he was subjected to an escalating series of coercive methods, culminating in 7 1/2 days of sleep deprivation, while diapered and shackled, and 183 instances of waterboarding. After the month-long torment, he was never waterboarded again.

"What do you think changed KSM's mind?" one former senior intelligence official said this week after being asked about the effect of waterboarding. "Of course it began with that."

Mohammed, in statements to the International Committee of the Red Cross, said some of the information he provided was untrue.

"During the harshest period of my interrogation I gave a lot of false information in order to satisfy what I believed the interrogators wished to hear in order to make the ill-treatment stop. I later told interrogators that their methods were stupid and counterproductive. I'm sure that the false information I was forced to invent in order to make the ill-treatment stop wasted a lot of their time," he said.


Critics say waterboarding and other harsh methods are unacceptable regardless of their results, and those with detailed knowledge of the CIA's program say the existing assessments offer no scientific basis to draw conclusions about effectiveness.

"Democratic societies don't use torture under any circumstances. It is illegal and immoral," said Tom Parker, policy director for counterterrorism and human rights at Amnesty International. "This is a fool's argument in any event. There is no way to prove or disprove the counterfactual."

John L. Helgerson, the former CIA inspector general who investigated the agency's detention and interrogation program, said his work did not put him in "a position to reach definitive conclusions about the effectiveness of particular interrogation methods."

"Certain of the techniques seemed to have little effect, whereas waterboarding and sleep deprivation were the two most powerful techniques and elicited a lot of information," he said in an interview. "But we didn't have the time or resources to do a careful, systematic analysis of the use of particular techniques with particular individuals and independently confirm the quality of the information that came out."

is just one of many, many arguments against it.

of course a "senior intelligence official" is going to point to the correlation between 183 instances of torture -- 183!!! yeah, that's real effective -- as having some sort of efficacy in order to justify the orders he followed through. prove to me that it didn't work? no, the onus is on you to prove that it did work.

if it's any comfort, INDY, i think the investigation should be focused on Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld.
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:34 PM   #274
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I'm sure I could find more.
Much different from saying it NEVER works.

Surely we're nuanced enough to understand the difference.

Telling a girl at the bar "you're father must have been a thief because he stole the stars and put them in your eyes", doesn't work, but you'll always be able to find the anomaly where someone fell for it if tried enough...
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:40 PM   #275
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but INDY is still basing his "gotcha" on a really, really poor WaPo article with the most misleading headline i can remember.

it doesn't say that KSM became an asset "because of" the torture, only "after" the torture. it could say "in spite of" the torture.

it's wildly misleading. now, let's see the people who freaked out about the NYT article on McCain's affair with a lobbyist hold the WaPo to the same standards of "liberal media bias!" hysteria.
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Old 08-31-2009, 03:55 PM   #276
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Torture is ok as long as it doesn't happen to an American caught doing something untoward, or not, in one of these barbaric 3rd world countries that allow it.
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Old 09-06-2009, 01:55 PM   #277
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Breitbart.tv Krauthammer on CIA Torture Debate: Cheney is Winning
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Old 09-06-2009, 03:01 PM   #278
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Krauthammer and INDY, the crux was never that it NEVER worked.

Wake up.
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Old 09-06-2009, 03:25 PM   #279
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they could also use psychics
surely some useful information should come from them also
torture these psychics if you must
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Old 09-10-2009, 05:07 PM   #280
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torture doesn't work so why do we keep doing it?

does anyone remember the american politician who tried to claim waterboarding wasn't torture? and volunteered to undergo it to prove this (although he never did)... i can't remember his name for the life of me!
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Old 09-10-2009, 07:17 PM   #281
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Krauthammer is a fanatic, an extremist, and, by any reasonable definition of the term, an enabler of terrorism. I've previously exposed his racist genocide supporting statements on here. Most of the people in Gitmo are less actively dangerous.

For example, the following statement - written in the context of speculating about the possible consequences of an attack on Iran - is, in my opinion, apart from being despicable in its utter disregard for human life, openly racist:

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Many Mahdi will die, but they live to die

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...091401413.html

If a person in Germany or Austria publicly said the kinds of things that Krauthammer has said about Iranians, about Jews, they would run the risk of arrest.

Krauthammer should be exposed every time he rears his head. The man's a nasty bigot, end of story.
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Old 09-19-2009, 12:39 PM   #282
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Ex-CIA Chiefs Decry Holder Interrogator Probe in Letter to Obama
Seven former directors of the Central Intelligence Agency on Friday urged President Obama to reverse Attorney General Eric Holder's decision to hold a criminal investigation of CIA interrogators who used enhanced techniques on detainees.

The directors, whose tenures span back as far as 35 years, wrote a letter to the president saying the cases have already been investigated by the CIA and career prosecutors, and to reconsider those decisions makes it difficult for agents to believe they can safely follow legal guidance.

"Attorney General Holder's decision to re-open the criminal investigation creates an atmosphere of continuous jeopardy for those whose cases the Department of Justice had previously declined to prosecute," they wrote.

"Those men and women who undertake difficult intelligence assignments in the aftermath of an attack such as September 11 must believe there is permanence in the legal rules that govern their actions," the seven added.

The letter was signed by former directors Michael Hayden, Porter Goss, George Tenet, John Deutch, R. James Woolsey, William Webster and James R. Schlesinger.

The directors also warned that if the investigations are opened up, they fear that the assistance given to the United States by foreign intelligence agencies may jeopardize future cooperation.
So Mr. President, what is "job one." Our national defense or the appeasement of the political Left?
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Old 09-19-2009, 12:41 PM   #283
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So Mr. President, what is "job one." Our national defense or the appeasement of the political Left?

first, i think the Justice Department should go after Dick Fucking Cheney, and "lawyers" like Yoo and Gonzales.

torture weakens our national defense, and it kills our soul as a country.

you know, there are people on the Left who think that the USA is actually a pretty amazing, great place with fantastic ideals, and we get upset when we see things like TORTURE destroying that. to us, our greatness isn't measured in GDP or how accurate our cool bombs are or clearing the way for wildly exploitative cowboy capitalism while 45,000 die per year due to the unaffordability of health insurance.

we're great because of how much we have traditionally empowered the individual, and that includes the fact that we do not torture. and, as ever, it doesn't work. 183 waterboarding attempts should tell you that.
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Old 09-22-2009, 05:01 PM   #284
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Neuroscience:Torture Doesn't Work and Here's Why | Newsweek Voices - Sharon Begley | Newsweek.com

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Extreme pain and stress can actually impair a person's ability to tell the truth.
But, but, Cheney says it works! I don't know who to believe.
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Old 09-22-2009, 05:55 PM   #285
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It "doesn't work" and "it kills our soul as a country" are two entirely different and mutually exclusive arguments against the Bush policies of harsh interrogation, i.e. torture.

You have to choose denizens of the far-Left, which is it?
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