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Old 04-26-2009, 07:34 PM   #151
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it demonstrates that we're serious about not torturing, that we don't allow people to torture in our name, and that we punish those who do.

it keeps the sadists out, and it keeps the adults in.
sadism:

2 a: delight in cruelty b: excessive cruelty

Is sadism the next word to be redefined by the Left?

Who in their right mind thinks our waterboarding of detainees was anything other than a policy decision (undertaken after legal counsel and with congressional review mind you) done only with the BEST OF INTENTIONS of preventing another 9/11 type attack from occurring and not out of retribution, punishment or ruthless brutality.

Really? Who but the bug-eyed Bush-haters thinks otherwise?

A retro-inquisition serves only two purposes. It satiates the Moveon crowd that helped elect the president while distracting everyone else from the insane fiscal policy we are about to embark on.
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:41 PM   #152
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no. what matters is that we adhere to the rule of law even when it's hard to do so. why stop at waterboarding? let's chop off fingers, toes, testicles. if it "works," we should do it.
Shit yeah, why not kidnap their family members and kill their children in front of them. If they don't talk after you kill the first kid, start poppin' em off one by one, those people always have big families. By the time you reach the youngest one, they're sure to talk. Then kill their neighbours and destroy their villages, (well, some of that has already been done but not in the name of torture)

Sarcasm. I know Irvine is only making a point too.

The ignorance of the right in trying to defend this abhorrent behaviour is utterly disgusting. I could barely put up with the bigotry and obtuse thinking of conservatives (neocons, Republican base, Fox news...) in the past but to defend this? You are inhuman to defend torture of any kind under any circumstances if you consider yourself or your country to be moral and just. Basically, their position seems to be let the United States of America stay in the gutter with countries like WWII Japan, the Soviet Union, various republics which torture for hire and Vietnam of the sixties. All those countries' torturers would make the same arguments being made by the torture cheerleaders, it was done to protect the country and gain strategic information. America, a kinder and gentler torturer, who does it only because it has too.

If America fails to address this correctly, whatever moral authority which was claimed by past governments (which frankly I don't think any country has anyway) is dead and gone. All the talk of liberty, freedom and truth dies unless people are prosecuted, and it never happens again.
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:42 PM   #153
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Well, obviously not everyone is convinced that what the Bush administration did in regards to interigation techniques was illegal.

you're right. those people tend to be members of the Bush administration.




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This decision to go to war had already been made and approved by congress and supported by a majority of the US public. It was already the policy of the United States to remove Saddam from power, prior to Bush being elected President in 2000.
so why torture people in order to prove these links? why fabricate the WMD intelligence?

their actions belie your statements.



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The Presidents first priority is to protect the nation.
and he must do so under the law. he can change the law


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Again, what do you think of what Abraham Lincoln said below?

Lincoln faced a radically different world than Bush did even in September of 2001, and more importantly, in 2003 and 2005. what's more, in March 1863 Congress passed the Habeas Corpus Act.

so the historical parallel exists only under the very, very loose heading of "Sometimes Presidents Do Crazy Things." and most historians view Lincolns suspension of some civil liberties at a time when Americans were killing each other as a blemish on his otherwise highly successful presidency.

it's absurd to view legalizing torture as the same thing as freeing the slaves. that's the type of twisted thinking exemplified in these memos.
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:45 PM   #154
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sadism:

2 a: delight in cruelty b: excessive cruelty

Is sadism the next word to be redefined by the Left?

Who in their right mind thinks our waterboarding of detainees was anything other than a policy decision (undertaken after legal counsel and with congressional review mind you) done only with the BEST OF INTENTIONS of preventing another 9/11 type attack from occurring and not out of retribution, punishment or ruthless brutality.

who has to conduct the waterboarding? we've heard about the psychological impact of torture on the torturers, so when it becomes policy, that's when you look around for the sadists who will carry out the policy.

INDY, you won't trust your government to give you health care, you're going to trust them to torture people? WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS? wtf kind of thinking is that? need we talk about the road to hell?

some of the many, many reasons why torture is illegal has nothing to do with the actual techniques themselves. it's because you cannot torture WITH THE BEST OF INTENTIONS.




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Really? Who but the bug-eyed Bush-haters thinks otherwise?

A retro-inquisition serves only two purposes. It satiates the Moveon crowd that helped elect the president while distracting everyone else from the insane fiscal policy we are about to embark on.

and that's all anything is really about to you. get your digs in at the "liberals" who are ruining your fun. it's positively McCarthyite.
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:46 PM   #155
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President: Honey! Look, I have psychic powers!
Wife: Ok, where's the proof?
President: YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PROOF I DON'T THEREFORE YOU MUST BELIEVE ME
Wife: Security!


i have a rock that keeps away all the tigers.
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:49 PM   #156
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Shit yeah, why not kidnap their family members and kill their children in front of them. If they don't talk after you kill the first kid, start poppin' em off one by one, those people always have big families. By the time you reach the youngest one, they're sure to talk. Then kill their neighbours and destroy their villages, (well, some of that has already been done but not in the name of torture)


there was discussion as to whether or not it would be torture to tell a detainee that if he didn't cough up some juicy info -- a plot to bomb an LA building? a link between Saddam and Al-Qaeda? -- then they would tell said detainee that they were going to send men to his house who would kidnap his son and crush the boy's testicles.

this wouldn't actually happen, but the threat was used.

torture?
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Old 04-26-2009, 07:52 PM   #157
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Citing a real-life ticking bomb situation sometime in the last 8 years would literally be the first thing out of Dick Cheney's mouth to justify torture. Every arrested crackpot in Florida who dreamed about dismantling the Brooklyn Bridge with blowtorches has been paraded as a Great Victory in the War on Terror. ...So why can't anyone name a time here? Such sudden modesty!
There is information that is still classified that has not been made public. Without that information, you can't claim that it worked or did not work.

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President: Honey! Look, I have psychic powers!
Wife: Ok, where's the proof?
President: YOU DON'T HAVE ANY PROOF I DON'T THEREFORE YOU MUST BELIEVE ME
Wife: Security!
No one in the President's circle makes a claim without backing it up with information. In a meeting about whether to act or not act, members of the Presidents team don't claim that because they are on the negative side of the argument that they don't have to make a case for their position.

This is not debate class at your local High School.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:13 PM   #158
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so why torture people in order to prove these links? why fabricate the WMD intelligence?

their actions belie your statements.
If you understand how the US government works, you would know that the Bush administration had all the authority it needed to go to war after the congressional authorization on October 13, 2002. What the administration did or did not do after that date in regards to WMD intelligence or interigating certain individuals is irrelevant to that fact. There was not going to be another vote on whether or not to go to war in the US congress after that point.

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Lincoln faced a radically different world than Bush did even in September of 2001, and more importantly, in 2003 and 2005. what's more, in March 1863 Congress passed the Habeas Corpus Act.
Yes, it was a time where it was NOT possible to wipe out cities or countries within seconds. Bush did not have that luxury.

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so the historical parallel exists only under the very, very loose heading of "Sometimes Presidents Do Crazy Things." and most historians view Lincolns suspension of some civil liberties at a time when Americans were killing each other as a blemish on his otherwise highly successful presidency
Some historians view it that way, some.

Lincolns view here:

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"measures otherwise unconstitutional might become lawful by becoming indispensable to the preservation of the Constitution through the preservation of the nation"

Abraham Lincoln
was also similar to views that President Andrew Jackson had.

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it's absurd to view legalizing torture as the same thing as freeing the slaves. that's the type of twisted thinking exemplified in these memos.
Thats NOT the camparison.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:37 PM   #159
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There is information that is still classified that has not been made public. Without that information, you can't claim that it worked or did not work.

No one in the President's circle makes a claim without backing it up with information. In a meeting about whether to act or not act, members of the Presidents team don't claim that because they are on the negative side of the argument that they don't have to make a case for their position.

This is not debate class at your local High School.
Unfortunately for you, graduating high school is actually pretty important because it teaches you principles about how the (sorry) "real world" works. Pro tip: it's spelled "interrogation", not "interigation". Knowledge of the relevant words go a long way in helping you assert that critical BULLY PULPIT during an INTERNET DEBATE.
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Advisor: We need to invade China. I have no idea if there's a good reason for it, I will merely present half-assed allusions to unknown information, and I don't know if there are alternative strategies that accomplish our ends without violating international treaties we've signed. Nevertheless, this must be done.

President: You've presented a compelling argument.

Advisor B: Wait a minute! He's never even made a case for doing it!

President: Then it's quite clear each side has a valid and perfectly equal claim to the truth.
And so forth. I possess two wings and can fly. The proof isn't classified, but you'll just have to come to where I live and find out for yourself. But until you do that, remember, you have no proof I am not actually a Bird-Man, terror of the skies and U2 fan.

Your quotes I picked out are directly related to the positive argument that ticking time bomb scenarios existed, and tried to plead some mushy middle ground that gosh we just can't know. Nevermind that the immediate crisis argument is put down by the memo's careful, months long consideration of what it'd take to torture Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and others. This denies that justification for American torture.

No, what we do know are not absolutes but probabilities, not only do these memos reduce the probability of that ludicrous and mythical "good cause" to virtually nil.....if Cheney had a "bulletproof" argument like a ticking time bomb to keep his administration from war crimes, to persuade the public that criminal investigations are unnecessary, what is the probability he'd ignore that? Just stay modest, and never bring it up? You can bank on that increasingly smaller, infinitesimal chance that Bush officials somehow really did things right, or acknowledge the increasingly obvious fact that it's just simple apologizing for war criminals.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:43 PM   #160
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There is information that is still classified that has not been made public. Without that information, you can't claim that it worked or did not work.
and, likewise, you cannot say that the techniques "worked" -- which, again, is irrelevant to the actual issue at hand -- until you point to specific, actionable intelligence that would have been unattainable otherwise.



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No one in the President's circle makes a claim without backing it up with information. In a meeting about whether to act or not act, members of the Presidents team don't claim that because they are on the negative side of the argument that they don't have to make a case for their position.

This is not debate class at your local High School.

when you seek to change the law, you don't change it and then say, "tell me why i shouldn't have changed the law." you must present a compelling reason to change it in the first place.

the comfort exhibited in here with unchecked executive power is breathtaking. i suppose a dictatorship would be a heckuva lot easier.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:44 PM   #161
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Thats NOT the camparison.


you made the comparison. seems there wasn't one to begin with.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:45 PM   #162
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Nevermind that the immediate crisis argument is put down by the memo's careful, months long consideration of what it'd take to torture Khalid Sheikh Mohammed and others. This denies that justification for American torture.

No, what we do know are not absolutes but probabilities, not only do these memos reduce the probability of that ludicrous and mythical "good cause" to virtually nil.....if Cheney had a "bulletproof" argument like a ticking time bomb to keep his administration from war crimes, to persuade the public that criminal investigations are unnecessary, what is the probability he'd ignore that? Just stay modest, and never bring it up? You can bank on that increasingly smaller, infinitesimal chance that Bush officials somehow really did things right, or acknowledge the increasingly obvious fact that it's just simple apologizing for war criminals.

for me, this pretty much concludes the discussion. well said.
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Old 04-26-2009, 08:51 PM   #163
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and, likewise, you cannot say that the techniques "worked" -- which, again, is irrelevant to the actual issue at hand -- until you point to specific, actionable intelligence that would have been unattainable otherwise.
a word like "likewise" doesn't strike me as doing justice to torture's history. Obviously it's not some recent American invention to interrogate Bad People, it has a rather long and storied history of drawing out false confessions....er, excuse me, information that the interrogator had complete confidence was locked up in their subject's brains. Civilized, decent societies survive without it. There's an awfully deep hole for any advocates of torture to climb out of to argue that a systemic torture program is actually just a necessary little tweak on the American dream.

sorry, just a bugaboo I wanted to emphasize.
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Old 04-26-2009, 09:06 PM   #164
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a word like "likewise" doesn't strike me as doing justice to torture's history. Obviously it's not some recent American invention to interrogate Bad People, it has a rather long and storied history of drawing out false confessions....er, excuse me, information that the interrogator had complete confidence was locked up in their subject's brains. Civilized, decent societies survive without it. There's an awfully deep hole for any advocates of torture to climb out of to argue that a systemic torture program is actually just a necessary little tweak on the American dream.

sorry, just a bugaboo I wanted to emphasize.


weren't you listening? Americans torture with honor and good intentions.

that changes everything.
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Old 04-26-2009, 10:27 PM   #165
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Ike should have gone after FDR officials involved in the internment of Japanese-Americans after Pearl Harbor. Nixon should have tried those involved with the Bay of Pigs. Carter should have prosecuted Nixon for Cambodia and Ford for pardoning Nixon. Reagan should have taken Carter to court just for being Jimmy Carter. On and on.

Peaceful transfer of power is so overrated in a democracy.
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