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Old 11-22-2013, 09:18 AM   #256
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Wrong. Not like this.
I think you're forgetting how much hatred and vitriol there was during the GW years. Bush was the butt of jokes on a nightly basis and protesters demanding he be arrested for war crimes. Ironically, by the end of the second term - the only people that liked Bush were the men and women in the Armed Forces.

Sorry - I won't concede that Obama has had it worse.
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:37 AM   #257
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AEON - you don't have to concede it but that doesn't mean that you're right. There are a lot of objective data out there to support the notion that this is the most divided Congress of all time, which manifests itself, as just one example, in blocking Obama's nominees in unprecedented numbers. You can find this information - statistics and numbers, not subjective junk.

One good place is voteview.com.

For example:



Another good one:



Cloture motions:

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Old 11-22-2013, 09:52 AM   #258
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I think you're forgetting how much hatred and vitriol there was during the GW years. Bush was the butt of jokes on a nightly basis and protesters demanding he be arrested for war crimes. Ironically, by the end of the second term - the only people that liked Bush were the men and women in the Armed Forces.

Sorry - I won't concede that Obama has had it worse.


i'm sure you won't. that would mean admitting that the two parties aren't the same.

they aren't.

and that's not love for the Democrats. but it is an acknowledgement that the GOP in DC has quite literally gone crazy.

you could point to several GOP governors who are actually doing a decent job in their own states, but as a national political party they have become little more than a protest movement.
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Old 11-22-2013, 09:57 AM   #259
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The parties are the same to me because politicians are the same to me - the bottom of the barrel of our society.

Yes - it could be said Obama is having a difficult time because of a divided congress. IT could also be said because of Obama the congress is more divided. Either way, I think it is obvious that Obama is not an effective leader.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:10 AM   #260
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I think politicians aren't all the same. There are always a few exceptions. And probably most of them arrive on the scene quite different than what they are like 20 years later.

Desperately needed are (i) term limits and (ii) prohibitions on serving as lobbyists or accepting consulting positions with lobby groups for some period of time following their exit from office - 5-10 years seems like a good starting point.
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Old 11-22-2013, 10:18 AM   #261
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The parties are the same to me because politicians are the same to me - the bottom of the barrel of our society.
And this is why nothing gets done.

Maybe, just maybe, there are levels in the barrel that you need to take a look at.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:05 AM   #262
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Wrong. Not like this.
There was no internet in the 70's or 80's but the distain for Nixon and Reagan in the media, pop culture ant the opposition party was obvious. Maybe you need to listen to some old U2 bootlegs with the Ronald Raygun rants.

And show me a statement by a conservative major media person about Barack Obama that comes close to what Martin Bashir said about Sarah Palin last week on MSNBC.
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Old 11-22-2013, 11:19 AM   #263
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There was no internet in the 70's or 80's but the distain for Nixon and Reagan in the media, pop culture ant the opposition party was obvious. Maybe you need to listen to some old U2 bootlegs with the Ronald Raygun rants.
Apples and oranges...
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And show me a statement by a conservative major media person about Barack Obama that comes close to what Martin Bashir said about Sarah Palin last week on MSNBC.
And that's way too easy...
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:07 PM   #264
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It think it's easy to find supporting evidence that INDY is correct here. Conservative leaders are universally bashed by pop culture.

If anything, Obama has failed despite being given the benefit of the doubt in the early years of his presidency (it was all Bush's fault). Now, he's lost that support and starting to lose support from pop culture (and fellow Dems.)

To any neutral observer, this has been (and will probably continue to be) a weak presidency.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:10 PM   #265
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And this is why nothing gets done.

Maybe, just maybe, there are levels in the barrel that you need to take a look at.
Maybe, but it's like comparing diarrhea to soft stool - at a certain point, the difference is not worth discussing.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:12 PM   #266
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It think it's easy to find supporting evidence that INDY is correct here. Conservative leaders are universally bashed by pop culture.

If anything, Obama has failed despite being given the benefit of the doubt in the early years of his presidency (it was all Bush's fault). Now, he's lost that support and starting to lose support from pop culture (and fellow Dems.)

To any neutral observer, this has been (and will probably continue to be) a weak presidency.
You are absolutely correct. Finding a neutral observer is getting very difficult these days.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:18 PM   #267
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Maybe, but it's like comparing diarrhea to soft stool - at a certain point, the difference is not worth discussing.
You keep saying it's not worth discussing as if the statement is more or less self-evident. So does NBC, so does INDY. Meanwhile, there's a vast amount of information that directly contradicts you three, so I'm not sure why we have to keep having this merry-go-round.
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:43 PM   #268
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It think it's easy to find supporting evidence that INDY is correct here. Conservative leaders are universally bashed by pop culture.
But "pop culture" doesn't drive policy nor does it have the ability to block bills or block judicial nominations. The fact that Bono may have railed against Reagan didn't have any impact whatsoever on GOP legislation being passed or Reagan's nominees being confirmed.

Why is this even being brought up as the equivalent of a Congress which has factually been shown to be obstructive?

Also, who is Martin Bashir?
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:48 PM   #269
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If anything, Obama has failed despite being given the benefit of the doubt in the early years of his presidency (it was all Bush's fault). Now, he's lost that support and starting to lose support from pop culture (and fellow Dems.)
Benefit of the doubt by whom? Pop culture? Wow, what a political boon! Why, it almost overcomes the most obstructionist political opposition in American history.

Obama was never given the benefit of the doubt from his political opponents -you know, the ones that actually matter in creating an effective government.

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To any neutral observer, this has been (and will probably continue to be) a weak presidency.
To any neutral observer, this has been the most obstructed presidency in history. To whit: the brouhaha over the so-called "nuclear option" - so far no Republicans have actually raised any objections specific to Obama's judicial nominees. McConnell has even gone so far as to say that Obama choosing to fill vacant seats in the district circuit is "stacking the bench."

It is one of the traditionally accepted duties of the American presidency to nominate qualified persons to fill judicial vacancies. The minority party has always been able to raise objections about specific nominations, but most of Obama's nominees have been filibustered without any actual candidate-specific objections raised. It's as if the Republicans aren't so much objecting to Obama's candidates as they are objecting to Obama's constitutional right to nominate them.

The Real Roots of the Filibuster Crisis
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Old 11-22-2013, 12:55 PM   #270
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Has a political party ever openly stated that their sole goal was to block legislation in order to win the next election? I'm curious, because it seems unprecedented.
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