Obama Drops Religious Rhetoric

The friendliest place on the web for anyone that follows U2.
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
America has a tradition of being a secular state, that should be preserved.

:wink:

It was never the purpose of the Constitution to give religious content to the nation, rather, the Constitution was an instrument whereby already existing religious values of the nation could be protected and perpetuated.

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments."

- James Madison (The principal author of the Constitution)
 
Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That is not a statement about protecting or perpetuating any particular religious values, it is ensuring the state has a hands-off attitude towards religion.

The idea that the state should be involved promoting religious beliefs is discriminatory and illiberal, a desire to levy taxes against other people to subsidise your belief system is revealing.
 
It's kind of sad to argue the inspiration of this country (One Nation Under God)<---Which God, should be painfully clear.

then again... *shrugs* It's the hostile (to truth) world we live in. I blame teletubbies
 
It's kind of sad to argue the inspiration of this country (One Nation Under God)<---Which God, should be painfully clear.

then again... *shrugs* It's the hostile (to truth) world we live in. I blame teletubbies




the inspiration of this country? you mean John Locke? you mean that it was the natural culmination of The Enlightenment?
 
It's kind of sad to argue the inspiration of this country (One Nation Under God)<---Which God, should be painfully clear.

then again... *shrugs* It's the hostile (to truth) world we live in. I blame teletubbies

One nation under God...

Some interesting facts, I know those may get in your way, but here they are:

The Pledge of Allegiance was originally written by a Christian socialist.

The words "under God" were not put in until 1952.

But even if these weren't the facts why should it be painfully clear?

Now what were you saying about "truth"?
 
One nation under God...

Some interesting facts, I know those may get in your way, but here they are:

The Pledge of Allegiance was originally written by a Christian socialist.

The words "under God" were not put in until 1952.

But even if these weren't the facts why should it be painfully clear?

Now what were you saying about "truth"?

How does this discredit our nation's founding father's beliefs? Are you assuming my political views because I acknowledge what's been written/documented regarding their faith? :applaud:
 
You seem to acknowledge a particular subset of beliefs, at the expense of others, while wholly ignoring the importance of secularism in the constitution.

Not allowing the state to promote or persecute beliefs protects everybody, with a strong protection against state based religious discrimination a plurality can be guaranteed, it makes it much more difficult for the government to single out a single religion for unique persecution, and it makes sure that state schools will not be used to promote a sectarian agenda.

It doesn't matter if John Adams was a Christian, or that Thomas Jefferson was an active doubter, regardless of private religious beliefs they helped establish a secular state that could protect all beliefs.
 
How does this discredit our nation's founding father's beliefs? Are you assuming my political views because I acknowledge what's been written/documented regarding their faith? :applaud:

It doesn't discredit the founding father's beliefs. I could care less about their beliefs, but their beliefs don't make the Constitution a document based on Christianity nor this country a Christian Judeo country.

YOU brought up the "one nation under God" as if it was some proof, it isnt'.
 
You seem to acknowledge a particular subset of beliefs, at the expense of others, while wholly ignoring the importance of secularism in the constitution.

*sigh* didn't we cover this?

:wink:

It was never the purpose of the Constitution to give religious content to the nation, rather, the Constitution was an instrument whereby already existing religious values of the nation could be protected and perpetuated.

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments."

- James Madison (The principal author of the Constitution)

I'm not arguing for a sovereign theocracy here, just acknowledging our founder's systematic principles. I guess their own words in the context of building a nation have less merit than your 'enlightened' view of their secular progression.
 
People living in 1770-1820 did a lot of great things. That doesn't mean they were correct about everything.
 
I'm not arguing for a sovereign theocracy here, just acknowledging our founder's systematic principles. I guess their own words in the context of building a nation have less merit than your 'enlightened' view of their secular progression.
Defining the United States as a Christian Nation serves a political purpose, it is a launching pad for allowing religious influence in public policy (ostensibly for reasons of tradition).

If the government explicitly recognises a Judeo-Christian foundation as a justification for policy it enables religious influence over contentious issues such as abortion, marriage rights, religious subsidies, gay rights, public education, drug policy, and freedom of speech.
 
How does this discredit our nation's founding father's beliefs? Are you assuming my political views because I acknowledge what's been written/documented regarding their faith? :applaud:



what was so great about their "faith" was that, 1) it would be almost unrecognizable today, and 2) they knew that the best way to preserve faith would be to get it out of government altogether. they were well aware of the Divine Right of Kings, as well as The Inquisition, in fact all of European history, and they knew that one thing poisoned the other.

hence, secularism. the people can be as religious as they want, but the functions of government themselves are to be entirely secular, even if said functions are carried out by the most pious Charlie Church imaginable. because that job held by Charlie Church could also be performed by Joe Atheist. and that's why it works.
 
what was so great about their "faith" was that, 1) it would be almost unrecognizable today, and 2) they knew that the best way to preserve faith would be to get it out of government altogether. they were well aware of the Divine Right of Kings, as well as The Inquisition, in fact all of European history, and they knew that one thing poisoned the other.

hence, secularism. the people can be as religious as they want, but the functions of government themselves are to be entirely secular, even if said functions are carried out by the most pious Charlie Church imaginable. because that job held by Charlie Church could also be performed by Joe Atheist. and that's why it works.
I would agree but substitute the word "neutral" for "secular." The government shall not favor, endorse or establish any one religious creed but neither should it show hostility or limit the free exercise there of.
It's not that secular is not entirely inaccurate but there needs to be room for "God Bless America," "In God We Trust" and other proper demonstrations of "public religion." Secular is too sterile and cold of a term.

And without doubt, they presupposed a populace that practiced a philosophy of self-restraint (in the U.S., today as it was 235 years ago, overwhelmingly Biblical) rather than live in anarchy or under tyranny.
 

An influential Enlightenment thinker is not right all the time. If we are to take Locke at his word, then the Bible is the inerrant truth, period. It is not subject to interpretation, but "truth without any mixture for its matter." Do you believe this to be so? If so, do you eat shellfish?
 
It's not that secular is not entirely inaccurate but there needs to be room for "God Bless America," "In God We Trust" and other proper demonstrations of "public religion." Secular is too sterile and cold of a term.

How would you feel if we expanded on that idea? Instead of "In God We Trust" just being printed on money, what about missiles? Torture devices? Gay marriage licences? IRS seizures? Why isn't the religious right looking into this, it's brilliant!!!
 
An influential Enlightenment thinker is not right all the time. If we are to take Locke at his word, then the Bible is the inerrant truth, period. It is not subject to interpretation, but "truth without any mixture for its matter." Do you believe this to be so? If so, do you eat shellfish?

mmmm.. lobster bisque :drool:

It is not what goes into the mouth that makes a person unclean. It is what comes out of the mouth that makes a person unclean
-Jesus

^He put much of the Old Testament kosher stuff into perspective.
 
Locke also held, and greatly profited from, extensive investments in the Royal Africa Company (slave traders) and, as secretary for the British proprietary colony of Carolina (most of modern-day TN, NC, SC, MS, AL and GA), drafted a constitution for that colony providing for, among other things, the establishment of a slave-labor plantation economy. Needless to say, this same acceptance of slavery, not to mention outright owning slaves in many cases, also characterized many of the 'Founding Fathers,' and the evidence remains in our Constitution to this day (the three-fifths clause). Was that too part of the plan "to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" all this cut-and-paste quote potpourri supposedly points to--in which case our "progression" in amending the Constitution to outlaw it was presumably regrettable--or do we make exceptions for progress that, from our present vantage point, seems like the way it should always have been?

(Not that any of this has much of anything to do with Obama's statements--but then neither do any of the Founding Fathers' personal religious beliefs. But if you're going to insist that the Constitution was explicitly intended to preserve and facilitate a polity based on Christianity, then you'd better be able to reconcile the Constitution's preservation and facilitation of slavery with that claim...and explain why, if that kind of moral compromise is the result you get from "an instrument whereby already existing religious values of the nation could be protected and perpetuated," anyone should want to continue to use said "instrument" in that way, rather than being open to changes in values once seen as religiously justified.)
 
Last edited:
Reread the thread to see who originally referenced the great 'enlightened' Locke.

If your going to use slavery as an example of Christian/religious "justification", don't forget to mention who the first abolitionist were, and where they got their inspiration.
 
I'm not the one claiming that the Constitution was designed to protect and perpetuate Christian values specifically.
 
Reread the thread to see who originally referenced the great 'enlightened' Locke.

If your going to use slavery as an example of Christian/religious "justification", don't forget to mention who the first abolitionist were, and where they got their inspiration.
Deo Vindice
 
Locke also held, and greatly profited from, extensive investments in the Royal Africa Company (slave traders) and, as secretary for the British proprietary colony of Carolina (most of modern-day TN, NC, SC, MS, AL and GA), drafted a constitution for that colony providing for, among other things, the establishment of a slave-labor plantation economy. Needless to say, this same acceptance of slavery, not to mention outright owning slaves in many cases, also characterized many of the 'Founding Fathers,' and the evidence remains in our Constitution to this day (the three-fifths clause). Was that too part of the plan "to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments" all this cut-and-paste quote potpourri supposedly points to--in which case our "progression" in amending the Constitution to outlaw it was presumably regrettable--or do we make exceptions for progress that, from our present vantage point, seems like the way it should always have been?

(Not that any of this has much of anything to do with Obama's statements--but then neither do any of the Founding Fathers' personal religious beliefs. But if you're going to insist that the Constitution was explicitly intended to preserve and facilitate a polity based on Christianity, then you'd better be able to reconcile the Constitution's preservation and facilitation of slavery with that claim...and explain why, if that kind of moral compromise is the result you get from "an instrument whereby already existing religious values of the nation could be protected and perpetuated," anyone should want to continue to use said "instrument" in that way, rather than being open to changes in values once seen as religiously justified.)

The three-fifths clause was a political, not moral compromise. Without it there would have been no 13 state union.
 
By "moral compromise" I meant slavery itself, not just the three-fifths clause--that was a compromise on taxation with reference to slaves, not whether slavery and the slave trade would be allowed to continue per se. But of course it was a moral compromise as well as a political compromise! The two aren't mutually exclusive. Madison, Jefferson, Washington, Mason--to name just some of the delegates best-known and/or mentioned in this thread--all owned slaves, and they certainly weren't part of some obscure, alien Other faction in terms of either their religious beliefs or their political philosophies.

Again, I'm not claiming that slavery was somehow a byproduct of Christianity as such. But anyone who claims that the Constitution was specifically designed to protect and perpetuate Christian values should be able to account for how the 'Founding Fathers'" acceptance of (and in numerous cases direct participation in) slavery fits into that picture. And why, if an evil that profound was sanctioned through this "instrument whereby already existing religious values of the nation could be protected and perpetuated," anyone should consider themselves bound to interpret that "could" as a "must." Either the document was explicitly intended to promote specifically Christian values or it wasn't; and if it was, clearly its signatories found slavery compatible with that project.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom