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Old 04-19-2009, 07:48 PM   #31
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America has a tradition of being a secular state, that should be preserved.


It was never the purpose of the Constitution to give religious content to the nation, rather, the Constitution was an instrument whereby already existing religious values of the nation could be protected and perpetuated.

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments."

- James Madison (The principal author of the Constitution)
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:55 PM   #32
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Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
That is not a statement about protecting or perpetuating any particular religious values, it is ensuring the state has a hands-off attitude towards religion.

The idea that the state should be involved promoting religious beliefs is discriminatory and illiberal, a desire to levy taxes against other people to subsidise your belief system is revealing.
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Old 04-19-2009, 07:59 PM   #33
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It's kind of sad to argue the inspiration of this country (One Nation Under God)<---Which God, should be painfully clear.

then again... *shrugs* It's the hostile (to truth) world we live in. I blame teletubbies
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Old 04-19-2009, 08:04 PM   #34
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It's kind of sad to argue the inspiration of this country (One Nation Under God)<---Which God, should be painfully clear.

then again... *shrugs* It's the hostile (to truth) world we live in. I blame teletubbies



the inspiration of this country? you mean John Locke? you mean that it was the natural culmination of The Enlightenment?
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Old 04-19-2009, 08:05 PM   #35
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It's kind of sad to argue the inspiration of this country (One Nation Under God)<---Which God, should be painfully clear.

then again... *shrugs* It's the hostile (to truth) world we live in. I blame teletubbies
One nation under God...

Some interesting facts, I know those may get in your way, but here they are:

The Pledge of Allegiance was originally written by a Christian socialist.

The words "under God" were not put in until 1952.

But even if these weren't the facts why should it be painfully clear?

Now what were you saying about "truth"?
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Old 04-19-2009, 08:19 PM   #36
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One nation under God...

Some interesting facts, I know those may get in your way, but here they are:

The Pledge of Allegiance was originally written by a Christian socialist.

The words "under God" were not put in until 1952.

But even if these weren't the facts why should it be painfully clear?

Now what were you saying about "truth"?
How does this discredit our nation's founding father's beliefs? Are you assuming my political views because I acknowledge what's been written/documented regarding their faith?
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Old 04-19-2009, 08:39 PM   #37
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You seem to acknowledge a particular subset of beliefs, at the expense of others, while wholly ignoring the importance of secularism in the constitution.

Not allowing the state to promote or persecute beliefs protects everybody, with a strong protection against state based religious discrimination a plurality can be guaranteed, it makes it much more difficult for the government to single out a single religion for unique persecution, and it makes sure that state schools will not be used to promote a sectarian agenda.

It doesn't matter if John Adams was a Christian, or that Thomas Jefferson was an active doubter, regardless of private religious beliefs they helped establish a secular state that could protect all beliefs.
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Old 04-19-2009, 08:54 PM   #38
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How does this discredit our nation's founding father's beliefs? Are you assuming my political views because I acknowledge what's been written/documented regarding their faith?
It doesn't discredit the founding father's beliefs. I could care less about their beliefs, but their beliefs don't make the Constitution a document based on Christianity nor this country a Christian Judeo country.

YOU brought up the "one nation under God" as if it was some proof, it isnt'.
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:03 PM   #39
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You seem to acknowledge a particular subset of beliefs, at the expense of others, while wholly ignoring the importance of secularism in the constitution.
*sigh* didn't we cover this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TokyoRarry View Post


It was never the purpose of the Constitution to give religious content to the nation, rather, the Constitution was an instrument whereby already existing religious values of the nation could be protected and perpetuated.

"We have staked the whole future of American civilization not upon the power of government, far from it. We have staked the future of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments."

- James Madison (The principal author of the Constitution)
I'm not arguing for a sovereign theocracy here, just acknowledging our founder's systematic principles. I guess their own words in the context of building a nation have less merit than your 'enlightened' view of their secular progression.
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Old 04-19-2009, 09:05 PM   #40
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the inspiration of this country? you mean John Locke? you mean that it was the natural culmination of The Enlightenment?
“The Bible is one of the greatest blessings bestowed by God on the children of men.- It has God for its author; salvation for its end, and truth without any mixture for its matter.- It is all pure.”

-John Locke (one of the most influential Enlightenment thinkers)
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:35 PM   #41
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People living in 1770-1820 did a lot of great things. That doesn't mean they were correct about everything.
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:46 PM   #42
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I'm not arguing for a sovereign theocracy here, just acknowledging our founder's systematic principles. I guess their own words in the context of building a nation have less merit than your 'enlightened' view of their secular progression.
Defining the United States as a Christian Nation serves a political purpose, it is a launching pad for allowing religious influence in public policy (ostensibly for reasons of tradition).

If the government explicitly recognises a Judeo-Christian foundation as a justification for policy it enables religious influence over contentious issues such as abortion, marriage rights, religious subsidies, gay rights, public education, drug policy, and freedom of speech.
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Old 04-19-2009, 10:48 PM   #43
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People living in 1770-1820 did a lot of great things. That doesn't mean they were correct about everything.
They did have some bloody good ideas about some things, we owe a lot to the influence of enlightenment thinkers.
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Old 04-19-2009, 11:17 PM   #44
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How does this discredit our nation's founding father's beliefs? Are you assuming my political views because I acknowledge what's been written/documented regarding their faith?


what was so great about their "faith" was that, 1) it would be almost unrecognizable today, and 2) they knew that the best way to preserve faith would be to get it out of government altogether. they were well aware of the Divine Right of Kings, as well as The Inquisition, in fact all of European history, and they knew that one thing poisoned the other.

hence, secularism. the people can be as religious as they want, but the functions of government themselves are to be entirely secular, even if said functions are carried out by the most pious Charlie Church imaginable. because that job held by Charlie Church could also be performed by Joe Atheist. and that's why it works.
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Old 04-19-2009, 11:29 PM   #45
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oh. wow. zing. i guess the case is closed then.
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