Obama Drops Religious Rhetoric - Page 2 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 04-07-2009, 07:07 PM   #16
Refugee
 
Bluer White's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Maine
Posts: 1,886
Local Time: 09:07 PM
Quote:
I've said before that one of the great strengths of the United States is, although as I mentioned we have a very large Christian population, we do not consider ourselves a Christian nation or a Jewish nation or a Muslim nation. We consider ourselves a nation of citizens who are bound by ideals and a set of values..
Well said.

So in the spirit of ideals and values, no wisecracks from me about the good Reverend Wright.
__________________

__________________
Bluer White is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 08:44 PM   #17
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
...I'm not really any fonder of statements to this effect than I am of implications that the US Constitution was somehow based on the 'Founding Fathers'' interpretation of the Bible. Averroes was a rationalist, yes, and strongly influenced by Aristotle; he argued, very controversially for his time, that the interpretation of religious law (sharia) should be reserved for those trained in the demonstrative methods of Aristotelian philosophy, rather than the dialectical and rhetorical methods of theologians, which he openly scorned. But ultimately this was an argument about who ought to have authority to intepret sharia as the law of the land, not whether sharia ought to be the law of the land; he considered 'revelation' and 'philosophy' complementary, reconcilable. While he did become a strong influence on the Christian High Scholastics, neither in his time nor theirs did anyone argue for actual secularism, political neutrality in regards to religion, as we'd now understand that. Really one might just as well argue that 'Plato was the father of secularism,' and you'd be just about as correct and incorrect in saying so.
I did anticipate this response, and, on the surface, I'd say that this interpretation is correct. Averroës, himself, wasn't the paragon of modern secularism. On the other hand, by "Founding Father," I meant that he laid the cornerstone upon which successive philosophers laid the foundation for secularism, due to the central tenet of Averroism being the separation of philosophy and religion and the influence that philosophy had on Western philosophy through at least the 16th century.

Very simplistically, without Averroës, we do not get Aquinas. And without Aquinas, we do not get John Locke, who was the greatest influence on the American Founding Fathers and the U.S. Constitution, and, coupled with Rousseau, has the greatest pre-modern influence on the American psyche.
__________________

__________________
melon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 09:01 PM   #18
Rock n' Roll Doggie
VIP PASS
 
Bono's shades's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: The back of beyond
Posts: 5,038
Local Time: 09:07 PM
Obama made a very similar speech months and months ago, before he was elected. I know this because my wingnut aunt sent me an e-mail forward (which quoted him completely out of context, naturally) condemning him for being "anti-Christian."

I sent a "reply to all" message reminding everyone that the First Amendment explicitly states that the U.S. does not have an official state religion.

My aunt actually stopped sending me political e-mail forwards for a while.
__________________
Bono's shades is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2009, 09:59 PM   #19
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 03:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by melon View Post
Very simplistically, without Averroës, we do not get Aquinas. And without Aquinas, we do not get John Locke, who was the greatest influence on the American Founding Fathers and the U.S. Constitution, and, coupled with Rousseau, has the greatest pre-modern influence on the American psyche.
True, they're all part of the same evolving intellectual conversation, and Averroes definitely has a place in it. It's just that, mostly on account of the number of truly boneheaded variants of the 'democracy/secularism/etc. is a Judeo-Christian idea' argument floating around out there--where immersion in that intellectual milieu is treated as if it were merely incidental to personal religious belief and observance, or resurgences of what are in fact longstanding debates and tensions within the tradition are hysterically made out to be its death knell--I tend to distrust arguments that smack of intellectual determinism; that when Notion X was first clearly articulated 1200 years ago, obviously it made that idea's contemporary relatives inevitable, and they've served us pretty well haven't they, so we'd better not break faith (literally) with Thinker X...except of course to the extent that that's already happened, which people making these types of arguments tend to be rather blind to. (Now how's that for a run-on sentence?) But I'd agree that our views of the proper relationship between church and state couldn't possibly look quite the same without Averroes.

Not that Rush Limbaugh likely had any of these concerns in mind...
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-08-2009, 07:21 AM   #20
ONE
love, blood, life
 
melon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 11,781
Local Time: 09:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by yolland View Post
Not that Rush Limbaugh likely had any of these concerns in mind...
That's because he's not all that bright, as none of us should be all that surprised about.

I also wouldn't overlook Averroës' influence on Western Christianity too much either. Aquinas thought he was so important as to not refer to him by name, instead calling him "The Commentator" alongside Aristotle, who he deemed "The Philosopher." In addition, as probably one the highest compliment Dante awarded "virtuous pagans," he was placed in Limbo in Dante's Inferno. Of course, he wasn't the only Islamic nor non-Christian philosopher (e.g., Avicenna & Maimonides) to have a significant impact in these days, but, as an example for the purposes of this thread, I think Averroës alone makes my original point valid, while making Rush, as always, a blithering buffoon.
__________________
melon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2009, 07:26 PM   #21
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:07 PM
More good signs
Quote:
Amidst all of the American flags and presidential seals, there was something missing when President Barack Obama gave an economic speech at Georgetown University this week -- Jesus.

The White House asked Georgetown to cover a monogram symbolizing Jesus' name in Gaston Hall, which Obama used for his speech, according to CNSNews.com.

The gold "IHS" monogram inscribed on a pediment in the hall was covered over by a piece of black-painted plywood, and remained covered over the next day, CNSNews.com reported.

The Washington Times' Belief Blog asked the university about the presidential request:

Julie Bataille from the university's press office e-mailed me that the White House had asked that all university signage and symbols behind the stage in Gaston Hall be covered.

"The White House wanted a simple backdrop of flags and pipe and drape for the speech, consistent with what they've done for other policy speeches," she wrote. "Frankly, the pipe and drape wasn't high enough by itself to fully cover the IHS and cross above the GU seal and it seemed most respectful to have them covered so as not to be seen out of context."

While the "IHS" directly behind where Obama spoke was covered over, CNSNews.com said the monogram was still visible in 26 other places in the hall during his speech. Those areas just weren't as prominent.

The Belief Blog talked with the Rev. Thomas Reese, a senior fellow at the Woodstock Institute at Georgetown University, who said he didn't think "this is motivated by theology, but by communications strategy."

The blog also talked with Catholic University spokesman Victor Nakas, who felt a bit more strongly on the subject:

"I can’t imagine, as the bishops’ university and the national university of the Catholic Church, that we would ever cover up our religious art or signage for any reason," Mr. Nakas wrote. "Our Catholic faith is integral to our identity as an institution of higher education."
Jesus Missing From Obama's Georgetown Speech | NBC Washington
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2009, 08:19 PM   #22
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
the iron horse's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: in a glass of CheerWine
Posts: 3,251
Local Time: 09:07 PM
John Adams:

“ The general principles upon which the Fathers achieved independence were the general principals of Christianity… I will avow that I believed and now believe that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

“[July 4th] ought to be commemorated as the day of deliverance by solemn acts of devotion to God Almighty.”


~John Adams in a letter written to Abigail on the day the Declaration was approved by Congress


"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

~October 11, 1798


"I have examined all religions, as well as my narrow sphere, my straightened means, and my busy life, would allow; and the result is that the Bible is the best Book in the world. It contains more philosophy than all the libraries I have seen."

~ December 25, 1813 letter to Thomas Jefferson


"Without Religion this World would be Something not fit to be mentioned in polite Company, I mean Hell."

~[John Adams to Thomas Jefferson, April 19, 1817] |
__________________
the iron horse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-16-2009, 08:45 PM   #23
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:07 PM
Quote:
Congress shall make no law respecting the establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Quote:
Thomas Jefferson
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I think these are more important.
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-17-2009, 06:00 AM   #24
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
DrTeeth's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: The Q continuum
Posts: 4,770
Local Time: 03:07 AM

Obama

Why are John Adams' personal beliefs important here?
__________________
DrTeeth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2009, 04:28 AM   #25
Babyface
 
TokyoRarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Down the hole just passing time
Posts: 24
Local Time: 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Earl-Of-IMDb View Post
but the fact is that The US is based on Judeo-christian principles, our constitution is based on biblical principals:



The Bible and the Constitution

home: AMERICA'S JUDEO CHRISTIAN HERITAGE

Thanks for the link, objectively pointing, to our nation's Judeo Christian heritage/principles. As much as secular revisionist deny it, you can't ignore historical context.
__________________
TokyoRarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2009, 05:32 AM   #26
Forum Moderator
 
yolland's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 7,471
Local Time: 03:07 AM
Christian Zionist website.
__________________
yolland [at] interference.com


μελετώ αποτυγχάνειν. -- Διογένης της Σινώπης
yolland is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2009, 06:50 AM   #27
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:07 PM
Racism is
__________________
A_Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2009, 07:21 PM   #28
Babyface
 
TokyoRarry's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Down the hole just passing time
Posts: 24
Local Time: 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DrTeeth View Post
Obama

Why are John Adams' personal beliefs important here?


The fundamental beliefs that founded this great country have been questioned, and minimized, by revisionist with an agenda.

"John Adams (October 30, 1735 – July 4, 1826) was an American politiciansecond President of the United States (1797–1801), after being the first Vice President (1789–1797) for two terms. He is regarded as one of the most influential Founding Fathers of the United States."

*Waits* for the village square protest: "his influence is subjective!"
__________________
TokyoRarry is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2009, 07:27 PM   #29
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,692
Local Time: 08:07 PM
Instead of extremely biased websites and a bunch of out of context quotes, why don't we talk about the Constitution itself.

HOW is the Constitution Christian Judeo? Why aren't all the 10 commandments incorporated?
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 04-19-2009, 07:29 PM   #30
ONE
love, blood, life
 
A_Wanderer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: The Wild West
Posts: 12,518
Local Time: 12:07 PM
John Adams signed the Treaty of Tripoli which included this piece
Quote:
Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.
America has a tradition of being a secular state, that should be preserved.
__________________

__________________
A_Wanderer is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:07 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com