NY Times Op-Ed on Moral Relativism - Page 3 - U2 Feedback

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Old 09-21-2011, 08:07 AM   #31
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I don't think the issue is having an expanded moral filter, or being able to think in a nuanced manner about moral issues, or having shades of grey. The issue -- in the initial article posted, anyway -- is that there is an increasing lack of moral filter, period...an inability to frame issues within a moral context. The ramifications for a host of issues that have fundamental judgments at their core -- from human trafficking to civil liberties -- are or should be obvious.

are we seeing evidence that young people are indifferent, or supportive, of human sex trafficking or civil liberties violations, racism, homophobia, sexism, or murder?

simply because young people might not think about the moral -- painted here as "right vs. wrong" -- implications does not mean that they are not making ethical decisions.
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:18 AM   #32
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My point exactly.
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Old 09-21-2011, 11:34 AM   #33
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With the death of Judeo-Christian God-based standards, people have simply substituted feelings for those standards.Millions of American young people have been raised by parents and schools with “How do you feel about it?” as the only guide to what they ought to do. The heart has replaced God and the Bible as a moral guide.


The way I see it, the heart is where God speaks to people. So, if there's a gnawing feeling or a calm feeling about a moral issue, then God is giving His input.

And even if you don't believe God does that, aren't we all aware to follow our heart and intuition/gut when it comes to making a decision?

I just wanted to give my 2 cents because I felt the article INDY500 posted was too upset over the state of moralism in this country.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:04 PM   #34
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always let your conscience be your guide.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:07 PM   #35
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are we seeing evidence that young people are indifferent, or supportive, of human sex trafficking or civil liberties violations, racism, homophobia, sexism, or murder?

simply because young people might not think about the moral -- painted here as "right vs. wrong" -- implications does not mean that they are not making ethical decisions.
The article makes that point. However, it seems that we may experiencing a cultural shift from ethicism (behavior rooted in a consistent, reasoned set of worldviews and judgments) to pragmatism (whatever is most effective in achieving a certain desired result), and while ethicism and pragmatism can sometimes go hand-in-hand, they do not always do so.

In political terms, if anything, I would see this as a bigger problem for the Right than the Left, given the Right's tendency for focusing on efficacy, particularly when it comes to economical and social issues. Conservatives need to be reminded of the values they espouse, since it seems to be the only way to hold them accountable.

All hearts, as it were, are not created equally ethical, or there would be no sex trafficking, civil liberties violations, racism, homophobia, sexism or murder. These are, tragically, still with us, and I suspect that the proponents thereof sleep just as soundly as the rest of us do.
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Old 09-21-2011, 01:45 PM   #36
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The article makes that point. However, it seems that we may experiencing a cultural shift from ethicism (behavior rooted in a consistent, reasoned set of worldviews and judgments) to pragmatism (whatever is most effective in achieving a certain desired result), and while ethicism and pragmatism can sometimes go hand-in-hand, they do not always do so.
I don't see this at all. I think it's naive to think there's been some overall shift. No one has shown me any evidence to the contrary, but if someone were willing to give me actual examples of what they were talking about I'd be glad to discuss them.

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In political terms, if anything, I would see this as a bigger problem for the Right than the Left, given the Right's tendency for focusing on efficacy, particularly when it comes to economical and social issues. Conservatives need to be reminded of the values they espouse, since it seems to be the only way to hold them accountable.
I'm curious what you by the right's tendency for focusing on efficacy with social issues? Care to explain?



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All hearts, as it were, are not created equally ethical, or there would be no sex trafficking, civil liberties violations, racism, homophobia, sexism or murder. These are, tragically, still with us, and I suspect that the proponents thereof sleep just as soundly as the rest of us do.
As a believer do you really believe all hearts are not CREATED equally?
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:54 PM   #37
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I'm curious what you by the right's tendency for focusing on efficacy with social issues? Care to explain?
I was thinking about the push for privatization of social issues, particularly when it comes to health care, as Nixon did in the 70s (helpfully documented by Michael Moore's "Sicko"). There's something strange about incentivizing sickness that I find morally problematic, even though supply-side economics argues the opposite. I was at an event where Stephen Moore, an editor for the Wall Street Journal spoke a few years ago, and he argued that the US should get out of the international aid business altogether. He believed that the private sector would step in. I had to walk out.

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As a believer do you really believe all hearts are not CREATED equally?
You mean, "...equally ethical"? No, I don't.
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Old 09-21-2011, 02:57 PM   #38
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The article makes that point.


does it though? i think it's making a series of bad assumptions.
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:09 PM   #39
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does it though? i think it's making a series of bad assumptions.
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Again, this doesn’t mean that America’s young people are immoral. Far from it. But, Smith and company emphasize, they have not been given the resources — by schools, institutions and families — to cultivate their moral intuitions, to think more broadly about moral obligations, to check behaviors that may be degrading. In this way, the study says more about adult America than youthful America.
?
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:18 PM   #40
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I was thinking about the push for privatization of social issues, particularly when it comes to health care, as Nixon did in the 70s (helpfully documented by Michael Moore's "Sicko"). There's something strange about incentivizing sickness that I find morally problematic, even though supply-side economics argues the opposite. I was at an event where Stephen Moore, an editor for the Wall Street Journal spoke a few years ago, and he argued that the US should get out of the international aid business altogether. He believed that the private sector would step in. I had to walk out.

You mean, "...equally ethical"? No, I don't.
Well I'm not sure your example holds up, specifically because I haven't seen many conservatives even argue healthcare as a social or moral issue. Which as I see it, is part of the problem with that debate. When I think of conservatives and social issues efficacy is probably the last thing that comes to mind.

I'm still not following how a Christian doesn't believe hearts aren't created equally. I think it's probably your use of the word "created" that's throwing me off.
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:24 PM   #41
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Well I'm not sure your example holds up, specifically because I haven't seen many conservatives even argue healthcare as a social or moral issue. Which as I see it, is part of the problem with that debate. When I think of conservatives and social issues efficacy is probably the last thing that comes to mind.
This is where you and I part ways. I do think conservatives see healthcare as a social or moral issue, just not as one that the government should focus on. I think efficacy is constantly an issue for conservatives, but the primary focus is financial/economic, and the problem with this approach to healthcare is that the value of treating patients should not be measured in dollars and cents.

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I'm still not following how a Christian doesn't believe hearts aren't created equally. I think it's probably your use of the word "created" that's throwing me off.
The discussion of the problem of evil is a discussion for another thread. Suffice it to say that if I believe we are created equally, it's in our proclivity for darkness rather than light. "There is no one righteous, not even one," "all have sinned," and all of that.
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:43 PM   #42
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This is where you and I part ways. I do think conservatives see healthcare as a social or moral issue, just not as one that the government should focus on. I think efficacy is constantly an issue for conservatives, but the primary focus is financial/economic, and the problem with this approach to healthcare is that the value of treating patients should not be measured in dollars and cents.

.
I wish this were true, it would have changed the debate drastically. But I haven't seen one conservative in Washington or in here that has discussed healthcare from a moral or social issue, and I think you would be hard pressed to show otherwise. It's interesting to me that churches will get involved in social debates but wouldn't touch that one with a ten foot pole. Very telling.

How does efficacy play a part in the gay marriage debate? They don't want government in healthcare but they do want it in marriage?
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Old 09-21-2011, 03:59 PM   #43
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?

where are the statistics about actual evidence of moral behaviors on the decline?

if we even take crime, it's been dropping precipitously for the past 15 years or so.

same thing with other so-called "moral" issues -- divorce rates are lower, teen pregnancy lower, even age of first sexual intercourse is later now than it was in the 1980s.

Brooks writes:

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It’s not so much that these young Americans are living lives of sin and debauchery, at least no more than you’d expect from 18- to 23-year-olds. What’s disheartening is how bad they are at thinking and talking about moral issues.
seems like their thinking is actually pretty spot-on? they're quite a bit more "moral" than their boomer parents?
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Old 09-21-2011, 04:49 PM   #44
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where are the statistics about actual evidence of moral behaviors on the decline?
Again, the article's not talking about behaviorism, but rather about contextualization -- the ability to think critically from an integrated worldview. As an old proverb puts it, "a way seems right to a man, until another man rises to challenge him." The ability to engage moral issues from an informed perspective, as opposed to a strictly instinctual one, would seem to be one of the hallmarks of an enlightened society.
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Old 09-21-2011, 04:56 PM   #45
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I wish this were true, it would have changed the debate drastically.
You and me both.

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But I haven't seen one conservative in Washington or in here that has discussed healthcare from a moral or social issue, and I think you would be hard pressed to show otherwise.
I don't disagree with you. Politicians are, however, frequently a poor barometer of what's actually happening on the street. Maybe the people I hang out with are more centrist, but I do have conservative friends who do believe it's a social/moral issue, they just don't like the idea of the government getting involved. And then there are the assholes who think that, if the uninsured don't have insurance, they should be left to die. I don't have a lot of time for assholes.

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It's interesting to me that churches will get involved in social debates but wouldn't touch that one with a ten foot pole. Very telling.
Perhaps because many churches, by and large, have taken it upon themselves to solve the issue, by forming volunteer health care facilities. One of my friends, a doctor, started a walk-in women's health clinic, specifically to meet the issue of poor women without healthcare. There are a lot of faith-based health-care co-ops that have formed over the last 20-30 years, who work outside of the established health insurance framework. It's not a perfect solution, but given the morass of inefficiency that constitues the US government, it may be among the better ones out there.

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How does efficacy play a part in the gay marriage debate? They don't want government in healthcare but they do want it in marriage?
No clue on that one.
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