North Korean State TV Says Kim Jong Il Died

[PhilsFan]

I'd say we've learned how harmful crony capitalism, government bailouts, tax loopholes, corporate welfare, artificial bubbles and ill-informed regulations are.

but those things are sort of inherent traits of capitalism, aren't they? why would those granted power by the capitalist system do anything but try to increase it?

 

[Achtung11]

It has absolutely nothing to do with communism, its economic system is best described as state capitalist. The workers do not control the means of production, and the workers having control is the definition of a communist/socialist economy. So NK is not 'communist', but rather, I feel, quite the peculiar theocracy with a strong sense of nationalism and it's just so messed up in every way and you can't even describe it as being even close to socialism/communism and ugh.

But the NK government is running on a budget deficit, which wouldn't be the case in state capitalism. The workers control the economy, and they are represented by the government, who's responsibility is that everyone gets an equal share of the pie. In NK case, the government is a dictatorship, so it's not technically communist, like we discussed before.

The whole point I was trying to make is that no country is ever purely communist or capitalist. That's why there are so many categories of each. There are no fine lines, but an economy that is state planned and in which private enterprise is illegal clearly falls under the communist end of the spectrum.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

The whole point I was trying to make is that no country is ever purely communist or capitalist. That's why there are so many categories of each. There are no fine lines, but an economy that is state planned and in which private enterprise is illegal clearly falls under the communist end of the spectrum.

I get the point that you're trying to make in regards to the fact that, yes, no country can ever be completely 100% capitalist but you're still missing the point about communism. That being, there can never be such thing as a communist country and there never has been one. Communism entails a stateless, classless society where the workers control the means of production. This doesn't happen in North Korea therefore it cannot be labelled as a 'communist' nation. Sound good?

(I'm not the best at explaining things but yeah)

 

[canedge]

But the NK government is running on a budget deficit, which wouldn't be the case in state capitalism. The workers control the economy, and they are represented by the government, who's responsibility is that everyone gets an equal share of the pie. In NK case, the government is a dictatorship, so it's not technically communist, like we discussed before.

The US has the benefit of being a mega-economy. Which allows, bid, tenders and the like. Whereas smaller nations like DPRK there is only a handful of people interested in a specific project. So Gov't representatives and private have to work together to get anything done.

Like in Canada, some economist might like to call it a command economy but no one would do anything without government financial support. No private investor would undertake a large project on their own.

 

[PhilsFan]

But the NK government is running on a budget deficit, which wouldn't be the case in state capitalism. The workers control the economy, and they are represented by the government, who's responsibility is that everyone gets an equal share of the pie. In NK case, the government is a dictatorship, so it's not technically communist, like we discussed before.

The whole point I was trying to make is that no country is ever purely communist or capitalist. That's why there are so many categories of each. There are no fine lines, but an economy that is state planned and in which private enterprise is illegal clearly falls under the communist end of the spectrum.

The workers have no control over the economy. They are pawns of the Supreme Leader. How is that in any way communism?

 

[Earnie Shavers]

The workers of North Korea probably/almost certainly have the least 'control' of anywhere on earth. It's basically slavery, really.

 

[Achtung11]

The workers have no control in NK, but the workers never have control in a "communist" country. But NK is all state owned enterprise. So then what is the definition of this if not communist?

I don't know, and this is why I wrote "Communist Dictatorship", because it has elements of both. If there is a better definition of an economy which is state owned but in which the government has all the power, please tell me. But I haven't come across one.

Ever heard of the term "Market Socialism"? It does exist, and countries are defined as that, such as China. It sounds like an oxymoron: "how can an economy have free markets if it's socialist?" But the whole point is that it has elements of both. You can't deny that NK has elements of communism.

 

[Achtung11]

The US has the benefit of being a mega-economy. Which allows, bid, tenders and the like. Whereas smaller nations like DPRK there is only a handful of people interested in a specific project. So Gov't representatives and private have to work together to get anything done.

Like in Canada, some economist might like to call it a command economy but no one would do anything without government financial support. No private investor would undertake a large project on their own.

Sure, I agree that the government has to be involved in any society, including in the U.S., and in some societies more than in others. China has more elements of communism than the U.S., but it's working great for them.

 

[Gynoid]

I would not say that China has that many elements of communism. The economy is growing so fast and the difference between the rich and poor too. There is not social net supporting the poor people. So yeah, China is shedding more and more Communist elements for economic growth.

 

[Earnie Shavers]

China hasn't been even remotely communist for decades.

 

[Gynoid]

Well, China tried to adapt communism, but after all those failures like the Great Leap forward and understanding that it is not a good idea to cut down every tie to the rest of the world they finally opened up and changed their policys especially those about state owned companies, collectivisation and all which are elements of a communist government.

 

[cobl04]

How have I, a seemingly intelligent individual, managed to completely misunderstand communism for years?

 

[HBK-79]

Hey guys. I was hoping if someone knowledgeable here could explain something to me.

I recently watched Wolf Blitzer's documentary on North Korea. He explains how North Korea is a country with no life, and how visiting NK was like "stepping back into the '50s".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GHizuMHXByE

Then I thought about China, another communist country. Unlike NK, China is an advanced nation with influence in commerce, culture, finance, media, fashion, technology, and transport. Both Beijing and Shanghai have "New York-ized" themselves with tall skyscrapers, traffic congestion, bright city lights, and a vibrant nightlife. Both cities have become fine tourist destinations (with Beijing hosting the 08 Summer Olympics).

As it's been mentioned, both NK and China are communist countries.

Why is China so "Western-looking" while NK seems like Nazi Germany?

 

[Vlad n U 2]

The workers have no control over the economy. They are pawns of the Supreme Leader. How is that in any way communism?

The workers of North Korea probably/almost certainly have the least 'control' of anywhere on earth. It's basically slavery, really.

Indeed, on another note, I can't help but find it interesting that North Korea were quite a way ahead of South Korea in terms of development in the 1960s/1970s.

The workers have no control in NK, but the workers never have control in a "communist" country. But NK is all state owned enterprise. So then what is the definition of this if not communist?

I don't know, and this is why I wrote "Communist Dictatorship", because it has elements of both. If there is a better definition of an economy which is state owned but in which the government has all the power, please tell me. But I haven't come across one.

Ever heard of the term "Market Socialism"? It does exist, and countries are defined as that, such as China. It sounds like an oxymoron: "how can an economy have free markets if it's socialist?" But the whole point is that it has elements of both. You can't deny that NK has elements of communism.

The only thing that NK has that contains elements of "communism" is in the Party's rhetoric, which of course, incorporates the use of words such as "workers" and "socialism" etc.

China has more elements of communism than the U.S., but it's working great for them.

Yeah, definitely, but even then that's not saying a whole damn lot anyway.

China hasn't been even remotely communist for decades.

As far as I know, not in one stage of its "communist" life has it had the workers controlling the production. The only thing they have related to it is the name of the party and the red stars on policeman's hats.

How have I, a seemingly intelligent individual, managed to completely misunderstand communism for years?

It's quite understandable and you're not the only one, especially when you grew up under our education system. I don't ever remember being taught that it was a society without class, state or money at school. (although I did have a teacher who knew of its true definition)

 

[Vlad n U 2]

As it's been mentioned, both NK and China are communist countries.

Why is China so "Western-looking" while NK seems like Nazi Germany?

How can China be "communist" and have a level of economic equality comparable to that of the US? (don't know how worthy this is, but here's a GINI coefficient map from 2009) They don't even have free healthcare for all of its citizens.

Again, if you read through this thread (or even a simple Google search!)you'd be able to understand that (and I'm tired of repeating this over and over and over) communism is a stateless, classless and moneyless society hence.

 

[canedge]

Why is China so "Western-looking" while NK seems like Nazi Germany?

I don't think that allow for intellectual freedom which might deter progress.

 

[canedge]

I don't actually disagree with all of North Korea's economic policies. To me, paying up to 65% in rental costs, like many do in Western cities, is kinda not fair.

 

[Achtung11]

China has price controls on energy, limits on investment from foreigners, a partially managed currency, amongst other things. Since everyone disagrees that these are elements of communism, please tell me what they are.

Edit: In original post re: China I said that their economy is "Market Socialism", I never said they have elements of communism, I said that about NK. I think someone misquoted me.

 

[PhilsFan]

As it's been mentioned, both NK and China are communist countries.

have you even read this thread?

 

[Achtung11]

Why is China so "Western-looking" while NK seems like Nazi Germany?

NK is a dictatorship, just like Nazi Germany was. In NK, the government controls everything, and owning your own business is illegal. Not only is there no freedom of doing business there, but there is very little freedom as is. Furthermore, the government doesn't even provide basic needs in many cases, such as food, and so there is even starvation.

In China, the government used to control a lot more of the business, but over the last few decades they've loosened their controls and now China has substantial private ownership, and so it's more Western looking. Because it loosened it's capital markets, and opened up to trade, it has been growing substantially economically, and will be doing so for many years into the future.

 

[canedge]

I really think there has to be an insane amount of cultural exchange that has to go on before North Korea and the US/Europe begin to become interdependent.

To summarize a display of ignorance, I heard one broadcaster, who I respect tremendously, say that we should just 'go in there' and 'get it over with'. It was quite sad.

The strangest twist of our globalized world is that Korea is in demand for University graduates from Australia, England, Canada and the US. To me it is incredible that a whole nation wants to learn English and is willing to pay very hard earned cash to do so.

Secondly, I wouldn't necessarily call North Korean camps 'slave labour' I would just say that Korean people are very hardworking and very willing to get ahead.

 

[canedge]

NK is a dictatorship, just like Nazi Germany was. In NK, the government controls everything, and owning your own business is illegal. Not only is there no freedom of doing business there, but there is very little freedom as is. Furthermore, the government doesn't even provide basic needs in many cases, such as food, and so there is even starvation.

I think we can all agree that 2011 was a bad year for dictatorships.

 

[PhilsFan]

I really think there has to be an insane amount of cultural exchange that has to go on before North Korea and the US/Europe begin to become interdependent.

To summarize a display of ignorance, I heard one broadcaster, who I respect tremendously, say that we should just 'go in there' and 'get it over with'. It was quite sad.

The strangest twist of our globalized world is that Korea is in demand for University graduates from Australia, England, Canada and the US. To me it is incredible that a whole nation wants to learn English and is willing to pay very hard earned cash to do so.

Secondly, I wouldn't necessarily call North Korean camps 'slave labour' I would just say that Korean people are very hardworking and very willing to get ahead.

what is the difference between north korean camps and slave labor?

 

[Vlad n U 2]

NK is a dictatorship, just like Nazi Germany was. In NK, the government controls everything, and owning your own business is illegal. Not only is there no freedom of doing business there, but there is very little freedom as is. Furthermore, the government doesn't even provide basic needs in many cases, such as food, and so there is even starvation.

In addition, we can attribute that to the country's isolation and its national ideology, Juche, which pleads "self-reliance". No one country can live entirely on its own resources.

 

[canedge]

Well first of all, no one really knows shit about what goes on there except probably the CIA and some elite South Koreans. But like I suggested to in another thread, which didn't go over well, sometimes how media outlets 'frame' things distort the true nature of things leaves us with an incorrect understanding.

If North Koreans work 'for the motherland', no questions asked, that might be enough for them and they might care about personal finance. Which might be a foreign concept to them. All I am trying to get at is that shit is radically different over there.

 

[canedge]

No one country can live entirely on its own resources.

Actually they can, they just won't grow with new ideas or live with what the rest of the world has to offer.

As for self-reliance, that is a luxury that globalization will eventually make redundant. 125 years ago, my ancestors didn't have any vehicles, now I have one. If a market economy comes to DPRK, they will have to work to update their personal lifestyles to catch up.

 

[PhilsFan]

Well first of all, no one really knows shit about what goes on there except probably the CIA and some elite South Koreans. But like I suggested to in another thread, which didn't go over well, sometimes how media outlets 'frame' things distort the true nature of things leaves us with an incorrect understanding.

If North Koreans work 'for the motherland', no questions asked, that might be enough for them and they might care about personal finance. Which might be a foreign concept to them. All I am trying to get at is that shit is radically different over there.

there is no question that shit is radically different. but just as you say that we do not know much, by the same token you do not know their motivations.

 

[Gynoid]

How can China be "communist" and have a level of economic equality comparable to that of the US? (don't know how worthy this is, but here's a GINI coefficient map from 2009) They don't even have free healthcare for all of its citizens.

Again, if you read through this thread (or even a simple Google search!)you'd be able to understand that (and I'm tired of repeating this over and over and over) communism is a stateless, classless and moneyless society hence.

this is what I tried to explain a few posts before: China is not communist! They are shedding more and more "communist" (state owened enterprises, etc. etc.) elements for economic growth. The only "communist" elements are, like you already mentioned before: The red flag with stars, the one -party-system and the communist architecture in big cities like Beijing.

 

[HBK-79]

How can China be "communist" and have a level of economic equality comparable to that of the US? (don't know how worthy this is, but here's a GINI coefficient map from 2009) They don't even have free healthcare for all of its citizens.

Again, if you read through this thread (or even a simple Google search!)you'd be able to understand that (and I'm tired of repeating this over and over and over) communism is a stateless, classless and moneyless society hence.

have you even read this thread?

A lot of it just went over my head. I was hoping for some simplification.

NK is a dictatorship, just like Nazi Germany was. In NK, the government controls everything, and owning your own business is illegal. Not only is there no freedom of doing business there, but there is very little freedom as is. Furthermore, the government doesn't even provide basic needs in many cases, such as food, and so there is even starvation.

In China, the government used to control a lot more of the business, but over the last few decades they've loosened their controls and now China has substantial private ownership, and so it's more Western looking. Because it loosened it's capital markets, and opened up to trade, it has been growing substantially economically, and will be doing so for many years into the future.

this is what I tried to explain a few posts before: China is not communist! They are shedding more and more "communist" (state owened enterprises, etc. etc.) elements for economic growth. The only "communist" elements are, like you already mentioned before: The red flag with stars, the one -party-system and the communist architecture in big cities like Beijing.

That's all the answers that I needed.

 

[Dfit00]

I sure hope that North Koreans will be able to get passports soon and leave the country for the best.