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Old 12-24-2011, 09:17 PM   #91
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I'd say we've learned how harmful crony capitalism, government bailouts, tax loopholes, corporate welfare, artificial bubbles and ill-informed regulations are.
but those things are sort of inherent traits of capitalism, aren't they? why would those granted power by the capitalist system do anything but try to increase it?
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Old 12-25-2011, 04:39 AM   #92
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It has absolutely nothing to do with communism, its economic system is best described as state capitalist. The workers do not control the means of production, and the workers having control is the definition of a communist/socialist economy. So NK is not 'communist', but rather, I feel, quite the peculiar theocracy with a strong sense of nationalism and it's just so messed up in every way and you can't even describe it as being even close to socialism/communism and ugh.
But the NK government is running on a budget deficit, which wouldn't be the case in state capitalism. The workers control the economy, and they are represented by the government, who's responsibility is that everyone gets an equal share of the pie. In NK case, the government is a dictatorship, so it's not technically communist, like we discussed before.

The whole point I was trying to make is that no country is ever purely communist or capitalist. That's why there are so many categories of each. There are no fine lines, but an economy that is state planned and in which private enterprise is illegal clearly falls under the communist end of the spectrum.
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Old 12-25-2011, 05:09 AM   #93
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The whole point I was trying to make is that no country is ever purely communist or capitalist. That's why there are so many categories of each. There are no fine lines, but an economy that is state planned and in which private enterprise is illegal clearly falls under the communist end of the spectrum.
I get the point that you're trying to make in regards to the fact that, yes, no country can ever be completely 100% capitalist but you're still missing the point about communism. That being, there can never be such thing as a communist country and there never has been one. Communism entails a stateless, classless society where the workers control the means of production. This doesn't happen in North Korea therefore it cannot be labelled as a 'communist' nation. Sound good?

(I'm not the best at explaining things but yeah)
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Old 12-25-2011, 10:10 AM   #94
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But the NK government is running on a budget deficit, which wouldn't be the case in state capitalism. The workers control the economy, and they are represented by the government, who's responsibility is that everyone gets an equal share of the pie. In NK case, the government is a dictatorship, so it's not technically communist, like we discussed before.
The US has the benefit of being a mega-economy. Which allows, bid, tenders and the like. Whereas smaller nations like DPRK there is only a handful of people interested in a specific project. So Gov't representatives and private have to work together to get anything done.

Like in Canada, some economist might like to call it a command economy but no one would do anything without government financial support. No private investor would undertake a large project on their own.
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Old 12-25-2011, 12:15 PM   #95
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But the NK government is running on a budget deficit, which wouldn't be the case in state capitalism. The workers control the economy, and they are represented by the government, who's responsibility is that everyone gets an equal share of the pie. In NK case, the government is a dictatorship, so it's not technically communist, like we discussed before.

The whole point I was trying to make is that no country is ever purely communist or capitalist. That's why there are so many categories of each. There are no fine lines, but an economy that is state planned and in which private enterprise is illegal clearly falls under the communist end of the spectrum.
The workers have no control over the economy. They are pawns of the Supreme Leader. How is that in any way communism?
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Old 12-25-2011, 01:37 PM   #96
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The workers of North Korea probably/almost certainly have the least 'control' of anywhere on earth. It's basically slavery, really.
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Old 12-25-2011, 03:05 PM   #97
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The workers have no control in NK, but the workers never have control in a "communist" country. But NK is all state owned enterprise. So then what is the definition of this if not communist?

I don't know, and this is why I wrote "Communist Dictatorship", because it has elements of both. If there is a better definition of an economy which is state owned but in which the government has all the power, please tell me. But I haven't come across one.

Ever heard of the term "Market Socialism"? It does exist, and countries are defined as that, such as China. It sounds like an oxymoron: "how can an economy have free markets if it's socialist?" But the whole point is that it has elements of both. You can't deny that NK has elements of communism.
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Old 12-25-2011, 03:07 PM   #98
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The US has the benefit of being a mega-economy. Which allows, bid, tenders and the like. Whereas smaller nations like DPRK there is only a handful of people interested in a specific project. So Gov't representatives and private have to work together to get anything done.

Like in Canada, some economist might like to call it a command economy but no one would do anything without government financial support. No private investor would undertake a large project on their own.
Sure, I agree that the government has to be involved in any society, including in the U.S., and in some societies more than in others. China has more elements of communism than the U.S., but it's working great for them.
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Old 12-25-2011, 06:29 PM   #99
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I would not say that China has that many elements of communism. The economy is growing so fast and the difference between the rich and poor too. There is not social net supporting the poor people. So yeah, China is shedding more and more Communist elements for economic growth.
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Old 12-25-2011, 06:49 PM   #100
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China hasn't been even remotely communist for decades.
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Old 12-25-2011, 07:08 PM   #101
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Well, China tried to adapt communism, but after all those failures like the Great Leap forward and understanding that it is not a good idea to cut down every tie to the rest of the world they finally opened up and changed their policys especially those about state owned companies, collectivisation and all which are elements of a communist government.
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Old 12-25-2011, 08:56 PM   #102
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How have I, a seemingly intelligent individual, managed to completely misunderstand communism for years?
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Old 12-25-2011, 09:57 PM   #103
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Hey guys. I was hoping if someone knowledgeable here could explain something to me.

I recently watched Wolf Blitzer's documentary on North Korea. He explains how North Korea is a country with no life, and how visiting NK was like "stepping back into the '50s".

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Old 12-25-2011, 10:00 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by PhilsFan View Post
The workers have no control over the economy. They are pawns of the Supreme Leader. How is that in any way communism?
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Originally Posted by Earnie Shavers View Post
The workers of North Korea probably/almost certainly have the least 'control' of anywhere on earth. It's basically slavery, really.
Indeed, on another note, I can't help but find it interesting that North Korea were quite a way ahead of South Korea in terms of development in the 1960s/1970s.

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The workers have no control in NK, but the workers never have control in a "communist" country. But NK is all state owned enterprise. So then what is the definition of this if not communist?

I don't know, and this is why I wrote "Communist Dictatorship", because it has elements of both. If there is a better definition of an economy which is state owned but in which the government has all the power, please tell me. But I haven't come across one.

Ever heard of the term "Market Socialism"? It does exist, and countries are defined as that, such as China. It sounds like an oxymoron: "how can an economy have free markets if it's socialist?" But the whole point is that it has elements of both. You can't deny that NK has elements of communism.
The only thing that NK has that contains elements of "communism" is in the Party's rhetoric, which of course, incorporates the use of words such as "workers" and "socialism" etc.

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China has more elements of communism than the U.S., but it's working great for them.
Yeah, definitely, but even then that's not saying a whole damn lot anyway.

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China hasn't been even remotely communist for decades.
As far as I know, not in one stage of its "communist" life has it had the workers controlling the production. The only thing they have related to it is the name of the party and the red stars on policeman's hats.

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How have I, a seemingly intelligent individual, managed to completely misunderstand communism for years?
It's quite understandable and you're not the only one, especially when you grew up under our education system. I don't ever remember being taught that it was a society without class, state or money at school. (although I did have a teacher who knew of its true definition)
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Old 12-25-2011, 10:05 PM   #105
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As it's been mentioned, both NK and China are communist countries.

Why is China so "Western-looking" while NK seems like Nazi Germany?
How can China be "communist" and have a level of economic equality comparable to that of the US? (don't know how worthy this is, but here's a GINI coefficient map from 2009) They don't even have free healthcare for all of its citizens.

Again, if you read through this thread (or even a simple Google search!)you'd be able to understand that (and I'm tired of repeating this over and over and over) communism is a stateless, classless and moneyless society hence.
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