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Old 07-20-2009, 01:55 PM   #16
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and if im not mistaken, wasnt it carter who basically fucked our relations with Iran?
You're joking, right?

What, the Americans didn't depose Mossadegh in 1953?
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:08 PM   #17
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You're joking, right?

What, the Americans didn't depose Mossadegh in 1953?
True, Eisenhower and the CIA did a pretty good job as well.
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:40 PM   #18
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Sort of like what the evil libruls have been contemplating for years now...
Hardly. Interventionism is a liberal shibboleth as much as a neo-con one. Only libertarian conservatives and the far left oppose it.
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:51 PM   #19
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Hardly. Interventionism is a liberal shibboleth as much as a neo-con one. Only libertarian conservatives and the far left oppose it.
Really? So in the build up of the Iraq war, post-9/11, the liberal elites weren't the ones wondering, hey, maybe it's our own behaviour that has contributed to this? I just imagined them asking whether the US had played a negative role in the Middle East by propping up awful regimes and housing thousands of troops in Muslim Holy Lands?

I'm sorry, but these were all points for discussion, and for anyone to now pretend like they weren't is total revisionist history. Too bad they got drowned out and the people who were advocating this line of thinking were branded as unpatriotic by the neocons.
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Old 07-20-2009, 02:57 PM   #20
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Really? So in the build up of the Iraq war, post-9/11, the liberal elites weren't the ones wondering, hey, maybe it's our own behaviour that has contributed to this? I just imagined them asking whether the US had played a negative role in the Middle East by propping up awful regimes and housing thousands of troops in Muslim Holy Lands?

I'm sorry, but these were all points for discussion, and for anyone to now pretend like they weren't is total revisionist history. Too bad they got drowned out and the people who were advocating this line of thinking were branded as unpatriotic by the neocons.
It was largely libertarian/paleocon or far left circles that were drawing these links.

I don't quite know who you are including in the phrase 'liberal elites', but if it includes figures like Hilary Clinton, then no, I don't recall her or her husband ever ruminating out loud if US foreign policy contributed to 911. Howard Dean, maybe, but he was on the fringes. There is Dennis Kucinch, of course, but he is not part of any elite.
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Old 07-20-2009, 05:20 PM   #21
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I meant it more in jest, as in the "liberal elites" so coined by people like diamond here on FYM - presumably including most of us here. And I do remember, quite distinctly, almost all of the left-leaning posters here wondering, more than once, all those things enumerated by bigjohn.
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Old 07-20-2009, 11:55 PM   #22
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That all goes back to Vietnam really; first it split the Democrats, then the rise of the antiwar movement (and, not coincidentally, its intertwining with the civil rights and women's rights movements) offered the Republicans an opportunity to revitalize and rebrand themselves in opposition. It wasn't a question of "infiltration." Obviously that process unfolded over many years, especially with regard to "neoconservatism," but just looking at the difference between how Nixon positioned himself in '60 versus how he positioned himself in '68, you can see the foundations of the shift quite clearly right there.
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Old 07-21-2009, 02:42 AM   #23
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It was largely libertarian/paleocon or far left circles that were drawing these links.

I don't quite know who you are including in the phrase 'liberal elites', but if it includes figures like Hilary Clinton, then no, I don't recall her or her husband ever ruminating out loud if US foreign policy contributed to 911.


They did recognize Saddam as quite the threat though, which is kind of funny now.

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Its not about who's killed the most.
Do you even know the objectives in Afghanistan ?
Actually it is about body count, do you really believe the rest? lol We achieved the "objective" in Afghanistan in after one month, now it's about eliminating the rest. It's hard to plan attacks on civilians elsewhere with a boot on your throat, and Afghanistan is a damn fine place to do that sort of thing.



Next.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090720/...ton_al_qaida_3
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