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Old 04-24-2010, 12:51 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by A_Wanderer View Post
your mind so open ..


sleep paralysis could
help explain
perhaps
misremembered
the possibility

. You posted a story in the last NDE thread that was thoroughly investigated and debunked, but you seem incapable of accepting the plausible answer.

I've pointed out the TED talk of the t who had a stroke, and had NDE symptoms while being aware of what was going on. She didn't need to latch her experiences onto anything supernatural in the way that your NDE community seems to do.
These ppl have never met, therefore they don't have an agenda.
You have more of an agenda in trying to dismiss them, and then more keep showing up

Quote:
perhaps,also possible,possibility, maybe, could.
Seems like someone's reaching, instead of examining credible data and testimony openly and thoroughly.

Re the youtube clip you posted about the Atheist who had a stroke, that's easy, as I explained in that thread-she had a OBE, which she confirmed in the
seminar.
She confirmed she had a natural and spiritual body in the clip as well.
She didn't advance to the Spirit World, because she wasn't dead. We do know her Spirit body hung around her natural body, nothing novel about that-OBEs usually happen in most NDEs first.

The story about the Seattle hospital and the patient seeing and describing the red worn out child's tennis shoe accurately, 2 stories above her on the window ledge as her spiritual body left her natural-you tried to debunk that, and I don't think you did.

So, continue on as you wish.

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Old 04-24-2010, 01:06 AM   #92
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But having your mind so open that you risk having your brain fall out isn't a good way to approach the world
Sometimes you're brilliant. Other times...

You seem so cut off from the rest of our intellectual heritage. I think one day you will understand how very little we truly understand about our tiny corner of space/time. I personally look forward to new discoveries - as we continue to look beyond the veil between what's considered natural today and what's considered "other."

I've met some brilliant scientist in my day, perhaps brighter than you - and all but one of them were simply astounded by how small and big our universe was at the same time. They each understood there was at least "something" orchestrating this dance - something great, beautiful, and harmonious in a way we can't truly grasp.

The laws of physics are a useful stepping stone - yet we still fail to fully understand something as apparently simple as gravity. The math now states there must be other dimension to make sense of how our universe isn't in utter shambles - and we are spending billions in supercolliders in the hopes of catching of glimpse of this proof.

I'm not asking you to open your mind, just open your eyes. Arrogance is a sign of fear - what is it you're afraid of?
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:16 AM   #93
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I think that a Haldane quote fits my view quite well
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Now, my suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose
I'm not closing my mind to all the weird and wonderful things about our universe. When I see something beautiful in nature my mind turns over how it can be crafted by dumb mechanical processes of replication and selection. I marvel at the fact my rich inner life is a product of evolutionary radiations from a common ancestor that I share with all known life on earth. At the extremes of cosmology I am enthralled at the question of why our universe has physical constants which are suitable for life, how our universe doesn't need any energy for its origin (a universe from nothing), and the possibilities of a multiverse (with all the possible worlds that would entail).

I am somewhat dismissive of NDE claims, I think that people have genuine experiences while the brain is under stress - but the proximate cause isn't supernatural. People have experiences that involve their cultural setting and beliefs, if every person independently had NDE's involving Jesus, Heaven, and Hell then there might be a little bit more to it. As it stands there is a very interesting neurological phenomena which demands a natural explanation.

I also think that people cling to these testimonies as an affirmation of their local conception of God which elevates humanity above other animals and Earth above all other planets. Diamond certainly sees NDEs as a verification of his Mormon faith, a religion which most posters on this forum dismiss as absurd.

The arrogance comes from those who claim that they know there is a divine intelligence behind the myriad complexity of the universe, we don't know. Not only that they know there is a creative intelligence behind it, but that they know the nature of that entity, its wants and commandments.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:23 AM   #94
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Just to clarify AEON.

I think that you are arguing that the fantastic puzzles of the physical universe which are being unravelled and introduced to science at all times somehow give support to the notion of a God.

I feel that you go on to characterise me as closed minded and shallow, compared to those with the humility to entertain that God is a good explanation for those wonders.

I can only state that I don't claim to know, I don't dismiss all believers as idiots, but I don't see any good reasons for people to hold those beliefs other than tradition and childhood inculcation. The sophisticated theological arguments seem to exist as a way for intelligence and philosophical Christians to justify the faith that they were raised into.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:35 AM   #95
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The answer to this question is a good measure for arrogance.

Is the universe made for humans to exist?
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:32 AM   #96
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The answer to this question is a good measure for arrogance.

Is the universe made for humans to exist?
The short answer is yes.

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Old 04-24-2010, 09:58 AM   #97
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Quote:
Diamond certainly sees NDEs as a verification of his Mormon faith..
they know there is a creative intelligence behind it


.
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Diamond certainly sees NDEs as a verification of his Mormon faith.
Not entirely correct, I see it as proof for an existence of God first and foremost.


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they know there is a creative intelligence behind it
Yes, NDE survivors who were once Agnostics, Non Believers or out right Atheists come back and realize the error of their ways, and do an entire course correction.

They then are compelled to release the views they once clung to because of what they've learned from crossing over and coming back.


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Old 04-24-2010, 12:25 PM   #98
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Atheists come back and realize the error of their ways


this is what's really going on here.
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Old 04-24-2010, 12:59 PM   #99
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I don't know why people are hoping to sway diamond with arguments based on reason. It's clear his mind is made up on this matter. It's also quite clear, from his ridiculous linking of us doubting his (gaping lack of verifiable) evidence to Thomas' doubting Jesus, that he has no real interest in debate, but talking about NDEs makes him feel as if he's in a position of moral superiority over the rest of us.
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Old 04-26-2010, 04:03 PM   #100
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this is what's really going on here.
I lol'd.
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Old 04-27-2010, 10:05 PM   #101
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Yes, NDE survivors who were once Agnostics, Non Believers or out right Atheists come back and realize the error of their ways, and do an entire course correction.
This same logic validates people who turn away from God when some bad event happens in their living life.
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Old 04-28-2010, 10:41 AM   #102
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but talking about NDEs makes him feel as if he's in a position of moral superiority over the rest of us.
Matthew 12:36, "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."


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Old 04-28-2010, 10:45 AM   #103
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This same logic validates people who turn away from God when some bad event happens in their living life.
Wrong.

NDE survivors are told that they will still have hardships upon coming back, and then do, but don't turn away from God.

They understand the big picture.

On the other hand if a religious person that hasn't had a NDE has a tremendous hardship, that may cause them to lose their Faith, therein lies the difference.



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Old 04-28-2010, 10:47 AM   #104
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Seriously Dave? I meant that about your first post there.

I'm putting a NCAA like ban on your eye black Bible passages.
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Old 04-28-2010, 12:56 PM   #105
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Wrong.

NDE survivors are told that they will still have hardships upon coming back, and then do, but don't turn away from God.

They understand the big picture.

On the other hand if a religious person that hasn't had a NDE has a tremendous hardship, that may cause them to lose their Faith, therein lies the difference.



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What about those that had an NDE and years later don't believe? They believe what they saw was just a dream?

Don't act like there are absolutes that somehow only you are privy to...
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