Near-death experience explained?

[diamond]

your mind so open ..


sleep paralysis could
help explain
perhaps
misremembered
the possibility

. You posted a story in the last NDE thread that was thoroughly investigated and debunked, but you seem incapable of accepting the plausible answer.

I've pointed out the TED talk of the t who had a stroke, and had NDE symptoms while being aware of what was going on. She didn't need to latch her experiences onto anything supernatural in the way that your NDE community seems to do.

These ppl have never met, therefore they don't have an agenda.
You have more of an agenda in trying to dismiss them, and then more keep showing up

perhaps,also possible,possibility, maybe, could.

Seems like someone's reaching, instead of examining credible data and testimony openly and thoroughly.

Re the youtube clip you posted about the Atheist who had a stroke, that's easy, as I explained in that thread-she had a OBE, which she confirmed in the
seminar.
She confirmed she had a natural and spiritual body in the clip as well.
She didn't advance to the Spirit World, because she wasn't dead. We do know her Spirit body hung around her natural body, nothing novel about that-OBEs usually happen in most NDEs first.

The story about the Seattle hospital and the patient seeing and describing the red worn out child's tennis shoe accurately, 2 stories above her on the window ledge as her spiritual body left her natural-you tried to debunk that, and I don't think you did.

So, continue on as you wish.

<>

 

[AEON]

But having your mind so open that you risk having your brain fall out isn't a good way to approach the world

Sometimes you're brilliant. Other times...

You seem so cut off from the rest of our intellectual heritage. I think one day you will understand how very little we truly understand about our tiny corner of space/time. I personally look forward to new discoveries - as we continue to look beyond the veil between what's considered natural today and what's considered "other."

I've met some brilliant scientist in my day, perhaps brighter than you - and all but one of them were simply astounded by how small and big our universe was at the same time. They each understood there was at least "something" orchestrating this dance - something great, beautiful, and harmonious in a way we can't truly grasp.

The laws of physics are a useful stepping stone - yet we still fail to fully understand something as apparently simple as gravity. The math now states there must be other dimension to make sense of how our universe isn't in utter shambles - and we are spending billions in supercolliders in the hopes of catching of glimpse of this proof.

I'm not asking you to open your mind, just open your eyes. Arrogance is a sign of fear - what is it you're afraid of?

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think that a Haldane quote fits my view quite well

Now, my suspicion is that the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose

I'm not closing my mind to all the weird and wonderful things about our universe. When I see something beautiful in nature my mind turns over how it can be crafted by dumb mechanical processes of replication and selection. I marvel at the fact my rich inner life is a product of evolutionary radiations from a common ancestor that I share with all known life on earth. At the extremes of cosmology I am enthralled at the question of why our universe has physical constants which are suitable for life, how our universe doesn't need any energy for its origin (a universe from nothing), and the possibilities of a multiverse (with all the possible worlds that would entail).

I am somewhat dismissive of NDE claims, I think that people have genuine experiences while the brain is under stress - but the proximate cause isn't supernatural. People have experiences that involve their cultural setting and beliefs, if every person independently had NDE's involving Jesus, Heaven, and Hell then there might be a little bit more to it. As it stands there is a very interesting neurological phenomena which demands a natural explanation.

I also think that people cling to these testimonies as an affirmation of their local conception of God which elevates humanity above other animals and Earth above all other planets. Diamond certainly sees NDEs as a verification of his Mormon faith, a religion which most posters on this forum dismiss as absurd.

The arrogance comes from those who claim that they know there is a divine intelligence behind the myriad complexity of the universe, we don't know. Not only that they know there is a creative intelligence behind it, but that they know the nature of that entity, its wants and commandments.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Just to clarify AEON.

I think that you are arguing that the fantastic puzzles of the physical universe which are being unravelled and introduced to science at all times somehow give support to the notion of a God.

I feel that you go on to characterise me as closed minded and shallow, compared to those with the humility to entertain that God is a good explanation for those wonders.

I can only state that I don't claim to know, I don't dismiss all believers as idiots, but I don't see any good reasons for people to hold those beliefs other than tradition and childhood inculcation. The sophisticated theological arguments seem to exist as a way for intelligence and philosophical Christians to justify the faith that they were raised into.

 

[A_Wanderer]

The answer to this question is a good measure for arrogance.

Is the universe made for humans to exist?

 

[diamond]

The answer to this question is a good measure for arrogance.

Is the universe made for humans to exist?

The short answer is yes.

<>

 

[diamond]

Diamond certainly sees NDEs as a verification of his Mormon faith..

they know there is a creative intelligence behind it


.

Diamond certainly sees NDEs as a verification of his Mormon faith.

Not entirely correct, I see it as proof for an existence of God first and foremost.

they know there is a creative intelligence behind it

Yes, NDE survivors who were once Agnostics, Non Believers or out right Atheists come back and realize the error of their ways, and do an entire course correction.

They then are compelled to release the views they once clung to because of what they've learned from crossing over and coming back.


<>

 

[Irvine511]

Atheists come back and realize the error of their ways

this is what's really going on here.

 

[Diemen]

I don't know why people are hoping to sway diamond with arguments based on reason. It's clear his mind is made up on this matter. It's also quite clear, from his ridiculous linking of us doubting his (gaping lack of verifiable) evidence to Thomas' doubting Jesus, that he has no real interest in debate, but talking about NDEs makes him feel as if he's in a position of moral superiority over the rest of us.

 

[UberBeaver]

this is what's really going on here.

I lol'd.

 

[kramwest1]

Yes, NDE survivors who were once Agnostics, Non Believers or out right Atheists come back and realize the error of their ways, and do an entire course correction.

This same logic validates people who turn away from God when some bad event happens in their living life.

 

[diamond]

but talking about NDEs makes him feel as if he's in a position of moral superiority over the rest of us.

Matthew 12:36, "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."


<>

 

[diamond]

This same logic validates people who turn away from God when some bad event happens in their living life.

Wrong.

NDE survivors are told that they will still have hardships upon coming back, and then do, but don't turn away from God.

They understand the big picture.

On the other hand if a religious person that hasn't had a NDE has a tremendous hardship, that may cause them to lose their Faith, therein lies the difference.



<>

 

[MrsSpringsteen]

Seriously Dave? I meant that about your first post there.

I'm putting a NCAA like ban on your eye black Bible passages.

 

[BVS]

Wrong.

NDE survivors are told that they will still have hardships upon coming back, and then do, but don't turn away from God.

They understand the big picture.

On the other hand if a religious person that hasn't had a NDE has a tremendous hardship, that may cause them to lose their Faith, therein lies the difference.



<>

What about those that had an NDE and years later don't believe? They believe what they saw was just a dream?

Don't act like there are absolutes that somehow only you are privy to...

 

[diamond]

What about those that had an NDE and years later don't believe?

Show us some.

<>

 

[BVS]

Show us some.

<>

This is your logic, if it's on the internet it's true, if it's not it's false?

I want you to really think about that line of logic real hard.

This was a close friend of mine, I heard him for years go on and on about his NDE. But he just no longer believes anymore. NDE's aren't magic they don't guarantee you faith.

What would he have to gain by telling his story? Think about that.

 

[Vincent Vega]

Just give someone who is a bit eloquent and has a bit of fantasy an hour and he'll write a nice story about how a NDE turned him away from God on one of the respective websites and suddenly it's to be believed.

 

[diamond]

This is your logic, if it's on the internet it's true, if it's not it's false?

I want you to really think about that line of logic real hard.

This was a close friend of mine, I heard him for years go on and on about his NDE. But he just no longer believes anymore. NDE's aren't magic they don't guarantee you faith.

What would he have to gain by telling his story? Think about that.

Scores and scores books have written by credible, intellegent people.

These credible, intellegent people hold seminars and fourms and speak openly about their life changing experiences.(NDEs).

That I post links from the internet, it's because we're an internet based community. People, in attempts to derail the subject, say "don't believe posts on the internet"- selectively.

They know there are reams of information outside of the internet, so the argument is disingenious.

Maybe your friend only had a dream, or more importantly maybe he forgot God will not take anyone's free will and force them to believe the things and experiences that He has shown them. Most people w profound NDEs understand this coming back and have an earnest desire to do only good. I can't speak for your friend.

<>

 

[BVS]

I didn't say "don't believe posts on the internet".

What makes these people "credible"?

There's nothing tangible. The ones that write the book and the ones that don't, nothing makes one more credible than the other. At the end of the day it comes down to faith.

You believe the stories they tell you.

My friend believed and then lost faith in his experience.

And me, I've never found any reason to believe they are anything but a dream.

Just like you said...

 

[Diemen]

Matthew 12:36, "But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment."

Thanks for proving my point.

 

[diamond]

Thanks for proving my point.

I'm not worried.

 

[toscano]

I'm not worried.

As an atheist, neither am I.

 

[diamond]

As an atheist, neither am I.

That's understandable.
Atheists usually aren't in this life.
It's after death they have their experiences that usually change their minds.

Best,

<>

 

[diamond]

I found this interesting:

The Number: 49% - Mystical experiences
Compiled from Deseret News
Published: Wednesday, April 28, 2010 10:45 p.m. MDT


About half of the U.S. public (49%) says they have had a religious or mystical experience, defined as a "moment of sudden religious insight or awakening." This is similar to a survey conducted in 2006 but much higher than in surveys conducted in 1976 and 1994, and more than twice as high as in a 1962 Gallup survey (22%). In fact, the 2009 Pew Forum survey finds that religious and mystical experiences are more common today among those who are unaffiliated with any particular religion (30%) than they were in the 1960s among the public as a whole (22%).

<>

 

[AliEnvy]

That prompts me to wonder how drug use levels might have affected those increases.

Were those reporting mystical experiences also reporting that they were stone cold sober at the time or...

 

[toscano]

That's understandable.
Atheists usually aren't in this life.
It's after death they have their experiences that usually change their minds.

Best,

<>

There is no afterlife to worry about, but you'll never know that because, well, you'll be dead by then.

 

[kramwest1]

There is no afterlife to worry about, but you'll never know that because, well, you'll be dead by then.

It solves itself, doesn't it?

 

[diamond]

There is no afterlife to worry about, but you'll never know that because, well, you'll be dead by then.

If you find there actually is one toscano, come find me.


<>

 

[toscano]

If you find there actually is one toscano, come find me.


<>

"if" ???

Not so sure huh ?

Anyhow, of the 2 fantasy lands of which you speak, Conservatives would be in the more fiery place.