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Old 04-01-2007, 10:29 AM   #31
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You may do so, but an artist who pulls out some public showing might have some more respect for other cultures, or religions, and their wishes. We are free Europe, but we are also tolerant Europe.

Jesus himself may not have waged war against others, but his followers did so very extensively, so I think that counts for both sides.

I have to admit, I forgot about van Gogh. A single Muslim going crazy, yeah, that problably speaks for the whole religion.

One month ago a father shot his son because he wasn't good enough a Christian. Again, a single case, a crazy person, and now I should condemn the whole Christian religion?

As you may have read here, the artist and the hotel received death thtreats as well.
So tell me, when some offended Christians send e-mails with death threats, that's nothing, but when some Muslim do the same it just shows how dangerous their whole religion is?
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Old 04-01-2007, 11:01 AM   #32
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Fascinating stuff. First those pesky women are supposed to be glad that they're not living in Saudi-Arabia, and now those pesky artists should be glad they're not being threatened by Muslims. People are really being held to the highest of standards here.
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Old 04-03-2007, 12:59 AM   #33
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I just saw the interview on Anderson Cooper.

Here's the thing -- what really should be put into question is the guy's intentions i.e. the state of his heart when he created it. The funny thing is, we're not in a place to know that (or judge it). Although, as it was stated earlier, he's a Christian and he said he created it as a religious experience and expression. As a Christian, I don't see what the big deal is.

The Catholic League guy who is in opposition to it was more offensive than the statue.
The artist said he created it out of his faith. The CL guy just spouted hate and judgement and acted like he didn't get an afternoon nap.

Plus, if you're not the artist, then art is about what you bring to it.
Other than that, it's a hunk of chocolate in the shape of some naked guy.
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Old 04-03-2007, 03:09 AM   #34
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^ I agree with you about Bill Donohue, he seems to be a total loose cannon (although one with 500+ organizations at his beck and call for letter-writing, telephone and boycott campaigns unfortunately).
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Old 04-03-2007, 03:42 AM   #35
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega
It has to do with some respect for other cultures or religions.

The Islamic religion asks not to portray Muhammad. So out of respect you shouldn't do it.

I've never heard that the Christian religion has generally a problem with protraying Jesus.

And the artist himself said that as a Christian it had to do with his faith.

There are fundamentalist Islamists, and also serious idiots.

You'll find the same with Christians.

I don't know about all these artists that got murdered over the last decades.

Probably you will come up with the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, but this came from Ajatollah Chomeini, so its a bad example.

The Danish cartoonists are still alive. And I'm sure if they portrayed Jesus as a suicide bomber and such the outcry amongst Christians would be similar.
No it wouldn't I could portray Jesus being sodomised by Satan without having any serious concequences but do the same to Mohammed and violence could ensue.

Because some few Muslims have an iconoclastic theology that prohibits them to depict their madman does not mean that the rest of us are prohibited from doing so. I have a great deal of contempt for those who believe that their non-existent deities commands exceed others free speech rights.

Respect has to be earned, demands for censorship will earn only contempt. Which gets an outlet in mockery and a Mohammed sculpture of ham - now thats comedy
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Old 04-03-2007, 10:10 AM   #36
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No it wouldn't I could portray Jesus being sodomised by Satan without having any serious concequences but do the same to Mohammed and violence could ensue.

But if we still had strict Christian theocracies, don't you think it would be the same? Christians aren't immune to this type of behavior. The Salem witch trials weren't that long ago in the whole scheme of things. The problem right now is that even Muslims in free countries, many are only one generation removed from strict theocratic rule.
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Old 04-03-2007, 02:15 PM   #37
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Quote:
Originally posted by A_Wanderer
No it wouldn't I could portray Jesus being sodomised by Satan without having any serious concequences but do the same to Mohammed and violence could ensue.

Because some few Muslims have an iconoclastic theology that prohibits them to depict their madman does not mean that the rest of us are prohibited from doing so. I have a great deal of contempt for those who believe that their non-existent deities commands exceed others free speech rights.

Respect has to be earned, demands for censorship will earn only contempt. Which gets an outlet in mockery and a Mohammed sculpture of ham - now thats comedy
Some years back there have been two bombings in the US at hospitals prviding abortion traced back to fundamental Christians that are militant against the US and against those sinners.

The artist in this case received death threats via email.

The Muslims, for example in the case of the Danish cartoonists, went on street to voice their protest, and some have had a very militant tone.

The Christians here did it via email which doesn't get so much media coverage, but still is very serious stuff.

"Jesus being sodomised by Satan" similarly as here approached as a publice showing for sure wouldn't let you get away with it without an outcry, and again death threats.

Yo use the word "censorship" and I'm sure everything that is in a way a restriction for you is a censorship, or a never justified restriction of your high valued freedom.

I was rather speaking of a respect of other religions and cultures and their wants. Muslims don't want to have Mohammed pictured, and as a tolerant person one should accept this wish.

Christians don't generally say you shouldn't picture Christ, but as you can see here many are objected to certain kinds of picturing Jesus. And the artist created this chocolate jesus out of an inspiration he had from his faith.
That, for example is one major difference. A Christian making a Jesus.

A Muslim making a Mohammed might get a different response than a Christian making a Mohammed, and a Muslim making a Jesus would probably draw much more anger upon himself than a Christian.

What should Muslims do to gain our respect (there are more than 600 million)?
And do have Christians already your respect?

I'm also very much against any religion telling me how I have to live, and no one, neither Christian nor Muslim can tell me what are my rights, or that I'm a sinner and with the devil, especially since there is no God and no Devil for me.
But I'm trying to practice tolerance as much as possible. I admit, I sometimes fail, but who doesn't? Still, I respect their wishes.

I know their are militant Muslims that have spread all over the world, and are a danger for our society. Still I don't think that justifies and provocation from ours, or should mean that there is no need to respect the overall wishes and beliefs of Muslims.
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Old 04-03-2007, 03:50 PM   #38
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But if we still had strict Christian theocracies, don't you think it would be the same? Christians aren't immune to this type of behavior. The Salem witch trials weren't that long ago in the whole scheme of things. The problem right now is that even Muslims in free countries, many are only one generation removed from strict theocratic rule.
Of course we would, the roundheads wouldn't take kindly to a graphical depiction of their lord.
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Old 04-03-2007, 03:57 PM   #39
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Originally posted by Vincent Vega


Some years back there have been two bombings in the US at hospitals prviding abortion traced back to fundamental Christians that are militant against the US and against those sinners.

The artist in this case received death threats via email.

The Muslims, for example in the case of the Danish cartoonists, went on street to voice their protest, and some have had a very militant tone.

The Christians here did it via email which doesn't get so much media coverage, but still is very serious stuff.

"Jesus being sodomised by Satan" similarly as here approached as a publice showing for sure wouldn't let you get away with it without an outcry, and again death threats.

Yo use the word "censorship" and I'm sure everything that is in a way a restriction for you is a censorship, or a never justified restriction of your high valued freedom.

I was rather speaking of a respect of other religions and cultures and their wants. Muslims don't want to have Mohammed pictured, and as a tolerant person one should accept this wish.

Christians don't generally say you shouldn't picture Christ, but as you can see here many are objected to certain kinds of picturing Jesus. And the artist created this chocolate jesus out of an inspiration he had from his faith.
That, for example is one major difference. A Christian making a Jesus.

A Muslim making a Mohammed might get a different response than a Christian making a Mohammed, and a Muslim making a Jesus would probably draw much more anger upon himself than a Christian.

What should Muslims do to gain our respect (there are more than 600 million)?
And do have Christians already your respect?

I'm also very much against any religion telling me how I have to live, and no one, neither Christian nor Muslim can tell me what are my rights, or that I'm a sinner and with the devil, especially since there is no God and no Devil for me.
But I'm trying to practice tolerance as much as possible. I admit, I sometimes fail, but who doesn't? Still, I respect their wishes.

I know their are militant Muslims that have spread all over the world, and are a danger for our society. Still I don't think that justifies and provocation from ours, or should mean that there is no need to respect the overall wishes and beliefs of Muslims.
No religion has my respect, it is willfull ignorance that latches on to fantasy because people are unwilling to live in a world without answers that is (barring any existential discoveries) meaningless. Im just intolerant to violent morons and the peaceful morons who don't have a problem with those ones helping them out.

The argument of equivalence is flawed because Islam unlike contempary Christianity hasn't been castrated by many years of secular freedoms. When somebody says tolerance I take it to be respecting somebodies rights, not giving their backwards views a modicum of actual respect merely their right to practice them. When people demand that the rest must submit to their beliefs through violence of the implicit threat of violence (such as that from the Mohammed cartoons) then it demands more violation of those beliefs. The day that the Islamic world doesn't really react to the blaspheming of their madman is real coexistance.

As far as what constitutes censorship I think that the use of force either government or knife and gun wielding believer to coerce a party from withdrawing their piece are both examples of it. I would loath a day when on paper we say we have free speech but in fact nobody is willing to speak out from fear (a condition that has continuously emerged through human history).
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Old 04-03-2007, 04:18 PM   #40
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No religion has my respect, it is willfull ignorance that latches on to fantasy because people are unwilling to live in a world without answers that is (barring any existential discoveries) meaningless.


do you have respect for those who choose to believe?
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Old 04-03-2007, 04:45 PM   #41
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I have no respect for people that use violence to pursue their will, or their religion.

But I don't, or at least try not to forget about the millions of people behind this religion living peacefully and respecting other people's freedom. And hence, I respect their wishes, as I want them to respect my wishes.

You are using the same superior talking some conservative Christians or Muslims use. They say that through their belief they are better than non-believers or members of other denominations.

You just tell all religious people that they are stupid and that you, who has overcome the belief in a deity, are somehow better, or know more then them.

I think it's hard to gain any respect from anybody by using such a derogative talk. But I see how it influences your decision to just not care about what other people please.
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Old 04-03-2007, 07:15 PM   #42
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do you have respect for those who choose to believe?
I try to judge people on their merits; but I don't respect their beliefs as much as I respect their right to believe.
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Old 04-03-2007, 07:18 PM   #43
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Quote:
Originally posted by Vincent Vega
I have no respect for people that use violence to pursue their will, or their religion.

But I don't, or at least try not to forget about the millions of people behind this religion living peacefully and respecting other people's freedom. And hence, I respect their wishes, as I want them to respect my wishes.

You are using the same superior talking some conservative Christians or Muslims use. They say that through their belief they are better than non-believers or members of other denominations.

You just tell all religious people that they are stupid and that you, who has overcome the belief in a deity, are somehow better, or know more then them.

I think it's hard to gain any respect from anybody by using such a derogative talk. But I see how it influences your decision to just not care about what other people please.
Im not saying that believers are by definition stupid, the most intelligent people can intelligently justify any fallacy, im not making claim to be a better person or that a lack of belief makes one a better person; I respect their right to believe, but I will not abide the religious intollerance forcing the hand of others. Freedom needs to be defended and keeping the public arena open from MoToons to Piss Christ does that.

When we take respect and tolerance as implicit boundaries of what we cannot say eventually those boundaries will be expected and all will suffer as a result. I want Muslims to have the same expectations of society as Christians and most all other believers - that their faith is personally important but they can't expect the rest of us (be it individuals, the media and education system) to respect that. I certainly wouldn't expect any Muslim to consider me - an atheist - to be anything short of deserving hell.

And one more important point; the person that gets offended is usually the one that deserves to reevalute their views, to have their assumptions challenged; what I would consider a moderate believer shouldn't have a problem with others blasphemy, those that do are identified by their reactions.
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Old 04-03-2007, 08:41 PM   #44
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I remember when Theo van Gogh was killed. It was a horrible thing to do, but we're only talking about one Muslim fanatic here. It shouldn't be used to define an entire religion with over one billlion followers.
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Old 04-04-2007, 12:43 AM   #45
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But it isn't just one lone nut and justification isn't very independent of chunks of their theology.
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