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Old 02-18-2009, 09:36 PM   #61
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What part makes us unique, and why isn't meat murder?
Here's the legal definition of murder in your country.

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Murder is defined in the New South Wales (NSW) Crimes Act 1900 as follows:[36]

Murder shall be taken to have been committed where the act of the accused, or thing by him or her omitted to be done, causing the death charged, was done or omitted with reckless indifference to human life, or with intent to kill or inflict grievous bodily harm upon some person, or done in an attempt to commit, or during or immediately after the commission, by the accused, or some accomplice with him or her, of a crime...
I'm sensing just a hint of human exceptionalism here.
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Old 02-18-2009, 09:59 PM   #62
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And as for what makes us uniquely deserving of rights...?
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Old 02-18-2009, 10:43 PM   #63
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And as for what makes us uniquely deserving of rights...?


if you read the other thread, you'll understand that we're only deserving of rights insofar as society deems us to be worthy of them, and often society has to limit these rights in order to suit whatever "beliefs" are held by the majority.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:08 PM   #64
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And as for what makes us uniquely deserving of rights...?
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By ANDY NEWMAN
Published: February 16, 2009
A 200-pound pet chimpanzee in Stamford, Conn., Monday viciously mauled a woman he had known for years, leaving her critically injured with much of her face torn away, the authorities said. The animal was shot dead by the police after he assaulted an officer in his car.

The attack, in the driveway of a sprawling home in a densely wooded neighborhood on the north side of Stamford, also brought a brutal end to the life of the chimpanzee, Travis, 14, a popular figure in town who had appeared in television commercials and often posed for photographs at the towing shop operated by his owners. He had escaped before, and in 2003 playfully held up traffic at a busy intersection for several hours, but had no history of violence, the authorities said. Travis’s social skills included drinking wine from a stemmed glass, dressing and bathing himself and using a computer.
For the same reason we blame the human owner and not Travis the chimp for his actions (regardless of his social skills). No animal's "rudimentary morality" can override its nature. No animal can make or keep moral commitments.

Animals have moral standing but not rights.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:25 PM   #65
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How is a creatures morality not part of its nature?

Keeping a chimp as a pet could be construed as a form of exploitation, which those laws you rail against would make illegal.

You continually deny that other primates are capable of showing morality (things such as empathy, reciprocity, and bonding) but don't justify human morality. You state that we have moral standing but can't say what it is beyond a thing given to us by God.

What is human morality, what makes it completely different from primate morality?
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:41 PM   #66
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What is human morality, what makes it completely different from primate morality?
Human morality is derived from ideals. Religion, social conventions et cetera.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:50 PM   #67
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Do you get your morality from the Bible?

Or do you have feelings that particular behaviours are wrong.
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Old 02-18-2009, 11:53 PM   #68
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No animal can make or keep moral commitments.
Can profoundly mentally impaired people make and keep moral commitments, and if not, then what would be the reason for granting them rights? (Note, 'because they're human too' isn't a logical reason if you're going to base rights for all other humans on their capacity to make and keep moral commitments; either the latter criterion truly is the basis or it isn't.)
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:05 AM   #69
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Or so the story goes.

I think we're back to anthropomorphism. Hey, I have pets and I love Animal Planet and Disney movies too but I also recognize the clear difference between animals and man.

You're very right, nature is fascinating but what can I say other than to say that some of us this take this figuratively and quite literally.
You've totally trivialized the examples I quoted to you by equating them purely to Disney movies and anthropomorphism, and that's unwarranted. You cannot simply turn a blind out to the evidence of 'complex' behaviors in other animals.
There are many well recognized social species - and like humans, another social species - there are certain behaviors that are exhibited by such species that facilitate living in a group. This includes co-operation, elements of caring for eachother (sharing food, protecting the weak, co-operation). We do not imagine these acts upon them, they actually happen. I'm not saying the thought processes behind them are the same, but that is not the point.
Further, the parental drive to protect and sacrifice to save young is fairly common. And I would argue, that this is merely an instinctual trait. I suspect that the urge that occurs in humans is not so different from the urge occurs in many animals. It's a very basic drive.
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:09 AM   #70
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For the same reason we blame the human owner and not Travis the chimp for his actions (regardless of his social skills). No animal's "rudimentary morality" can override its nature. No animal can make or keep moral commitments.

Animals have moral standing but not rights.
So, when we blame a parent for a child's actions......?



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can't say what it is beyond a thing given to us by God.
Which actually seems to cheapen it, imho. We'd be far more 'exceptional' if it was something we didn't have to have imparted upon us.
There's a difference between earning a million, and winning it in the lotto.
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:18 AM   #71
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Here's the legal definition of murder in your country.



I'm sensing just a hint of human exceptionalism here.



does this apply to unborn gays?
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Old 02-19-2009, 12:53 AM   #72
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Can profoundly mentally impaired people make and keep moral commitments
This is a rather large segment, including huge numbers of the elderly suffering from dementia, as well as young children.

Nevertheless, they are extended human rights as we know them.
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:33 AM   #73
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just to throw the cat amongst the pigeons, there is evidence (somewhere; I'm lazy) that elephants have an ability to grasp symbolic communication.

And even if they didn't, they certainly have an ability to hold a grudge. There are (possibly anecdotal) accounts of young elephants destroying the houses of humans who killed their parents. A period of years after the fact. I wonder, do they tell stories about themselves, among themselves?

Probably not strictly on topic, but whatever.

It's surely more accurate to say that meat is domesticated hunting. I've got no truck with the bullshit that says we must all give up meat... unfortunately it is natural for humans to eat meat as well as vegetable matter. Though, having grown our big brains already, off the back of meat eating, we can of course choose to stick to vegetable matter only. That's fine too.

I refer of course to the meats that humans generally farm to eat. The great apes may not be human but they are our very, very, very close cousins and deserve to be treated accordingly.
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Old 02-19-2009, 02:22 PM   #74
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Do you get your morality from the Bible?

.
The law would be much more complicated.

But morality. Personally from the ideal of the life of Jesus.
Socially, Western Civilization's moral code and theory of human rights developed under Constantine in the 300's A.D. and progressed through Thomas Aquinas, The Magna Carta, Blackstone's Commentaries and the U.S. Declaration of Independence. This is the concept that there is an objective moral code established by a Creator and grounded in human decency. A natural law by which both man and state should be judged and which neither is above.

Which is not to say we haven't and don't use tales and examples of virtue and high morals from other cultures to reinforce this world view. Because each human is given a conscience to judge, moral practices may differ from culture to culture but many moral standards remain the same. (The golden rule, murder and such).
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Old 02-19-2009, 03:10 PM   #75
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You've totally trivialized the examples I quoted to you by equating them purely to Disney movies and anthropomorphism, and that's unwarranted. You cannot simply turn a blind out to the evidence of 'complex' behaviors in other animals.
There are many well recognized social species - and like humans, another social species - there are certain behaviors that are exhibited by such species that facilitate living in a group. This includes co-operation, elements of caring for eachother (sharing food, protecting the weak, co-operation). We do not imagine these acts upon them, they actually happen. I'm not saying the thought processes behind them are the same, but that is not the point.
Further, the parental drive to protect and sacrifice to save young is fairly common. And I would argue, that this is merely an instinctual trait. I suspect that the urge that occurs in humans is not so different from the urge occurs in many animals. It's a very basic drive.
Look, we can find humanlike social skills, low levels of communication and some reasoning in our closest animal relatives. What truly separates man from them isn't that our capacities for those are so much greater but our moral nature.

Chimpanzee don't weigh their interests against the rights of others, They don't deliberate their actions against the greater good, and while they may feel temporary remorse over an action they are incapable of lifelong guilt. Their world is only what lays before them.

Animals act by physical laws alone through their DNA. A chimp is a chimp and will act accordingly within those norms, just as water will rundown hill on its own accord. But man is subject also to natural law which, unlike physical laws, can be violated. Which is why we are capable of both charity and cruelty well beyond that demonstrated by animals.

Humans alone are morally capable of overriding our nature, escaping the tyranny of our genes, to do good or to do evil.

No chimpanzee is ever going to do anything that another before it hasn't or that another couldn't quickly be trained to do. Can you say that about man?
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