More Fun with PETA and the KKK

[elevated_u2_fan]

All are created equal in the eyes of the Lord

other than muslims, gays, animals, blacks until the early 20th centry....

Sell crazy somewhere else.

 

[INDY500]

Humans are exceptional? Animals are more exceptional than some humans are. Humans are exceptional by virtue of their individual character-part of which is how they treat "lesser" beings, such as animals. I think it's more than a bit arrogant to think that humans are somehow inherently exceptional.

If one is Christian they can believe nothing less.

But of course, we are in the process of rejecting the Judeo-Christian world view and embracing the biocentric view of Darwinism as philosophy and the anthropomorphism of the radical environmental movement.

American Exceptionalism R.I.P
And now,
Human Exceptionalism R.I.P

 

[Vincent Vega]

American Exceptionalism was a Judeo-Christian world view?

 

[INDY500]

American Exceptionalism was a Judeo-Christian world view?

No, it's just the other Exceptionalism that dare not speak its name in FYM.

 

[MooMoo!]

I dont understand the significance of dressing in KKK gear...do they have a problem with the black dogs or something?

Seriously though, PETA need to adopt some new tactics. Stuff like this really doesnt get anyone on their side bar their own members.

I told my biology teachers about the sea kittens thing and they both laughed.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Humans are exceptional. Animals can't begin to comprehend rights and devoid of man they wouldn't and don't exist in the wild.

This position makes little sense, just read up on how bonobo groups display many of the behaviours which we consider moral, and then consider the many human behaviours which are utterly immoral.

The exceptions do not prove your rule.

 

[Butterscotch]

As much as I think PETA are misguided at times I also don't trust "facts" that are posted on MySpace pages nor do I find websites such as 'No Kill Now' to be all that objective. Just reading their "facts" you can tell they have an ax to grind and an agenda.

If you had bothered to click on the many links provided by the no kill site, or even scroll down, you'd see there are links and pictures from real newspapers and news organizations, from local right up to CNN. The woman who made the myspace did so to spread the word via the very large animal rights community on myspace to know the truth about PETA and their beliefs on cats and dogs.

I actually know people who were involved in the incidents where the animals were taken from rescues and no kill shelters under false pretense. It happened. Some of them suspected something was wrong but couldn't allow themselves to believe PETA would do that, and others sadly totally trusted PETA to 'rescue' animals they immediately killed and lied about. So sorry, I do know what I'm talking about. I could even name names and organizations but I probably shouldn't do that here. Oh, there is also a copy of PETA's own records on that site showing just how many they killed! Also remember that this is not a case of a shelter being too full- they have NO SHELTERS and lied about having homes and foster homes ready, but they killed the animals because they believed being pets would cause them to 'suffer.' If you'd bother to read the links, you'd see documented proof of Newkirk's true views on this and direct quotes! YOU are the one who needs to read up on the 'facts'. When you do, you'll see it's far worse than I can even describe.

 

[Butterscotch]

Thank you for the post!

A friend of mine works at an animal shelter for cats. And he said, "not one cat is put down, unless it is beyond saving." A cat named Chloe, the shelter has had for years. She is ten years old and will be cared for by the staff, for the rest of her natural life. Chloe is their favorite!

That's great! Too many animals are wasted for no good reason. It's upsetting. I'm so glad to hear there is another good shelter out there caring and saving lives!

If you are looking for a cat to love and can give a forever home. Check out your local Pet Smart stores. Where, you can adopt your new best friend. All cats have been spayed or neutered and are healthy!

Thank you so much for getting this message out, good luck with the adoptions!

 

[BVS]

If you'd bother to read the links, you'd see documented proof of Newkirk's true views on this and direct quotes! YOU are the one who needs to read up on the 'facts'. When you do, you'll see it's far worse than I can even describe.

I didn't say this never happened. I've seen the CNN report. My point was more about the rest of the site...

I agree, they've made some hypocritical moves...

 

[INDY500]

This position makes little sense, just read up on how bonobo groups display many of the behaviours which we consider moral, and then consider the many human behaviours which are utterly immoral.

Would you put the bonobo's penis-fencing into the moral or immoral category?

And I can hear it now, "Please Mr lion, don't eat me. I'm a bonobo chimp and I have rights."

You no doubt are a supporter of the Great Ape Project which aims to torpedo the prevailing Judeo-Christian philosophy and it's view of humankind at the center of Creation by making all mammals a community of equals.

Or maybe you even favor "plant rights" like the Swiss.

Or Ecuador, that granted rights to nature. Nature !!

Neither animal, plant or nature rights are based on science, just philosophy. And they certainly are not based on common sense.

 

[A_Wanderer]

Would you put the bonobo's penis-fencing into the moral or immoral category?

And I can hear it now, "Please Mr lion, don't eat me. I'm a bonobo chimp and I have rights."

You no doubt are a supporter of the Great Ape Project which aims to torpedo the prevailing Judeo-Christian philosophy and it's view of humankind at the center of Creation by making all mammals a community of equals.

Or maybe you even favor "plant rights" like the Swiss.

Or Ecuador, that granted rights to nature. Nature !!

Neither animal, plant or nature rights are based on science, just philosophy. And they certainly are not based on common sense.

Yes, it's all an elaborate conspiracy aimed at torpedoing Christianity. I had no idea that Jesus was so attached to animal testing of sentient beings.

Given the biodiversity in the world for the last few billion years you have a hard job justifying the assertion that we are the centre of creation. Even if we take the world as it is today as proof of a world designed around us then why are there so many nasty predators, parasites, bacteria, viruses, and prions out there constantly killing us? What is the point of God creating MRSA, rabies, ebola, AIDS, malaria, tsetse flies etc. in a world built with us in mind? These things exist because they can exist and replicate, even when it costs human life, like any other species.

You are right when you say that the concepts of ethics are not strictly based on science, but you are wrong to dismiss the philosophy, especially when you make an appeal to common sense. I don't think that other apes have the capacity to engage in society with recognition of rights and responsibilities, I do think that they are close enough to make some forms of exploitation morally wrong. Your hostility to the idea that apes are quite close on the family tree and might deserve some protections is quite closed minded.

And on the question of penis fencing I don't think that it falls into a good or evil dichotomy, it is revealing that you would employ this example rather than forced copulation by chimpanzees.

 

[~BrightestStar~]

And I can hear it now, "Please Mr lion, don't eat me. I'm a bonobo chimp and I have rights."

Really, this is your argument to counter the concept of animals having rights? Because another animal would "ignore" those rights?

So when a human being kills/maims/rapes/tortures/enslaves another human being, despite their pleas regarding their rights....what does that prove in your mind?

I think it's a matter of perception.
Both humans and animals kill. But generally, animals only kill to satisfy basic means - either to eat or protect themselves (there are exceptions, yes I do know of lion males that slaughter their rivals young). Animals generally do not tend to waste. Animals can live in community and balance with many other species.
Can humans (as a whole) say the same?

Humans and ants are the only species recorded to carry out war. Yes, we are indeed exceptional.

 

[ShipOfFools]

PETA are crazy. Even if I was a vegetarian, I wouldn't support their campaign. They're a bunch of nuts.

 

[INDY500]

Given the biodiversity in the world for the last few billion years you have a hard job justifying the assertion that we are the centre of creation. Even if we take the world as it is today as proof of a world designed around us then why are there so many nasty predators, parasites, bacteria, viruses, and prions out there constantly killing us? What is the point of God creating MRSA, rabies, ebola, AIDS, malaria, tsetse flies etc. in a world built with us in mind? These things exist because they can exist and replicate, even when it costs human life, like any other species.

Yes, I admit there is pain and suffering and ultimately death in this life--but there is a point to it.

You are right when you say that the concepts of ethics are not strictly based on science, but you are wrong to dismiss the philosophy, especially when you make an appeal to common sense. I don't think that other apes have the capacity to engage in society with recognition of rights and responsibilities, I do think that they are close enough to make some forms of exploitation morally wrong. Your hostility to the idea that apes are quite close on the family tree and might deserve some protections is quite closed minded.

Make no mistake, we as humans have the responsibility and duty to be good stewards of the environment and to treat animals humanely. We should be concerned about pollution, national resources and the treatment of animals under our supervision. But that is not the same as giving animals or nature rights.

Human exceptionalism is at the heart of human rights and we throw away or dilute that idea at our own peril.

And on the question of penis fencing I don't think that it falls into a good or evil dichotomy, it is revealing that you would employ this example rather than forced copulation by chimpanzees.

Thought we were talking about bonobos specifically.
No matter, apes act on instinct, experience or training but never after moral deliberation. Their grasp on the concept of morality being just as nonexistent as their grasp on the concept of shared rights.

 

[INDY500]

So when a human being kills/maims/rapes/tortures/enslaves another human being, despite their pleas regarding their rights....what does that prove in your mind?

It proves that we must constantly remind ourselves that all humans are exceptional. When we allow ourselves to see others as less than us it justifies in the mind actions that otherwise would be unthinkable (slavery, racism, torture as defined before GWB, genocide, pressured euthanasia, forced sterilization, organ harvesting and in my mind late-term abortion).

I think it's a matter of perception.
Both humans and animals kill. But generally, animals only kill to satisfy basic means - either to eat or protect themselves (there are exceptions, yes I do know of lion males that slaughter their rivals young). Animals generally do not tend to waste. Animals can live in community and balance with many other species.
Can humans (as a whole) say the same?

Humans and ants are the only species recorded to carry out war. Yes, we are indeed exceptional.

Well, we used to live in perfect harmony with nature which shows me how fully the doctrine of Original Sin explains the nature of man.
Please remember, we are also just as capable of wondrous acts of self-sacrifice, care-giving, compassion, healing, charity and saving species from extinction, building great cities and freeing whole populations from tyranny.

Proves we have free will doesn't it? That's what make us exceptional.

 

[A_Wanderer]

How do any of those things validate free will?

If the human brain operates like an immensely complicated clock with deterministic causal relationships then all of our greatest words and deeds are beyond our control, it excludes a particular type of free will. That is entirely compatible with the

As far as living in perfect harmony with nature I'm going to burst a bubble of naivete and point out the high infant mortality, low life expectancy, environmental degradation, and mass extinctions which accompany stone age humanity. Nature is always in a state of flux, its never in perfect harmony, and the record of extinction testifies to this fact.

The prism of Darwinism undercuts natural theology by explaining the uncomfortable facts about biology as well as the beautiful ones.

 

[yolland]

The Judeo-Christian moral philosophy, however, declares that human rights are universal and unalienable. All are created equal in the eyes of the Lord, all have incalculable moral worth, regardless of cognitive or physical capacities, age, social status, health, pigmentation, or residence (including which side of the birth canal you happen to be on).

I don't think that other apes have the capacity to engage in society with recognition of rights and responsibilities, I do think that they are close enough to make some forms of exploitation morally wrong. Your hostility to the idea that apes are quite close on the family tree and might deserve some protections is quite closed minded.

It seems to me that neither of you have identified what exactly the qualities that entitle a being to legal rights are, nor which legal rights specifically follow from possessing said qualities. "The Judeo-Christian moral philosophy declares..." merely appeals to a source; it doesn't explain the reasoning behind it. (Nor is 'Judeo-Christian moral philosophy' remotely specific enough to be helpful; the teleological doctrine of 'rights' in Aquinas, for instance, is surely as authentically 'Christian' as the deontological doctrine of 'rights' in Locke, yet the two are incompatible--whence even contemporary Thomists, like the Catholic philosopher Alasdair MacIntyre, ridicule belief in Lockean 'inalienable' natural rights as "one with belief in witches and in unicorns." And frankly, you could make a better case for tracing either doctrine to the ius naturale of the pagan Stoics than to the Bible.) It's not clear to me that A_W is actually advocating legal rights for apes (as opposed to, say, expanded prevention-of-cruelty laws), but if he is, I'm not clear on which qualities he believes warrant the awarding of rights (and which rights).

 

[~BrightestStar~]

As far as living in perfect harmony with nature I'm going to burst a bubble of naivete and point out the high infant mortality, low life expectancy, environmental degradation, and mass extinctions which accompany stone age humanity. Nature is always in a state of flux, its never in perfect harmony, and the record of extinction testifies to this fact.

Given INDY500's arguments my interpretation of the "perfect harmony" comment was some reference to eden.

by INDY500

self-sacrifice, care-giving, compassion, healing, charity and saving species from extinction, building great cities and freeing whole populations from tyranny.

Are you suggesting that these traits cannot be observed in other species beyond humans?
Self-sacrifice, as a parent for a child is not uncommon. Ex. Certain species of birds will feign injury to draw a predator away from young.
Care-giving: Again, this can be witnessed outside our species. Numerous species care for their young, or even share the work of raising young. Male lions will play with their cubs.
Compassion: Many apes have been shown to mourn their lost young, and to be comforted by the group. A number of species show interesting acts of what one may call compassion towards the ill or dying.
As for great cities - check out the insect world?

I realize much of this in anecdotal and to some extent there is a level of anthropomorphism regarding interpreting such behaviors, but your arguments regarding the exceptional-ism of humans as a species that somehow inherently gives us alone rights rings hollow to me. Especially given the aspects of humans that you keep highlighting as making us special.
I'm not saying animals have the same mental and reasoning capabilities as us, I highly doubt they wax philosophical about what freedom or rights are...but you should take a closer look at the animal kingdom. There's some exceptional stuff out there.


On a somewhat related note, wasn't there some ruling about rights for apes in France or something this past year?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Is there an antonym for anthropomorphism? I suspect that is what upsets some people.

Looking at humans as marvelous animals makes our achievements more impressive than having them handed to us by God.

 

[Irvine511]

It proves that we must constantly remind ourselves that all humans are exceptional. When we allow ourselves to see others as less than us it justifies in the mind actions that otherwise would be unthinkable (slavery, racism, torture as defined before GWB, genocide, pressured euthanasia, forced sterilization, organ harvesting and in my mind late-term abortion).

fascinating. and no death penalty either. nor do you point out sexism or homophobia.

you realize, INDY, that GWB used established torturing techniques used from the Spanish Inquisition all the way through Stalin, Hitler, and Pol Pot.

so, really, you have no overarching, timeless, eternal sense of morality.

you just have a political agenda.

 

[~BrightestStar~]

I never knew that Time magazine read interland...

What uncanny timing.

Monkeys have a sense of morality, say scientists - Times Online

Is there an antonym for anthropomorphism? I suspect that is what upsets some people.

Looking at humans as marvelous animals makes our achievements more impressive than having them handed to us by God.

Wow, I just learned a new word: theriomorphism.

 

[~BrightestStar~]

Consider it a thought experiment, I realize the fallacies in this proposition

It proves that we must constantly remind ourselves that all humans are exceptional. When we allow ourselves to see others as less than us it justifies in the mind actions that otherwise would be unthinkable (slavery, racism, torture as defined before GWB, genocide, pressured euthanasia, forced sterilization, organ harvesting and in my mind late-term abortion).

You also forgot such things as rape, murder and abuse.


Sooooo........does that mean animals never view other animals as less than equal to themselves, and thus never fall into our human justifications that let us carry out such atrocities on one another?

Cause I mean, in that case, if animals rarely disrespect the lives of other creatures, but we tend to constantly fall into that trap - maybe they are better than us?

 

[A_Wanderer]

Protesting against slavery and racism as being anti-religious is quite funny, everybody knows the negro bears the curse of Canaan.

 

[INDY500]

Given INDY500's arguments my interpretation of the "perfect harmony" comment was some reference to eden.

Or so the story goes.

Are you suggesting that these traits cannot be observed in other species beyond humans?
Self-sacrifice, as a parent for a child is not uncommon. Ex. Certain species of birds will feign injury to draw a predator away from young.
Care-giving: Again, this can be witnessed outside our species. Numerous species care for their young, or even share the work of raising young. Male lions will play with their cubs.
Compassion: Many apes have been shown to mourn their lost young, and to be comforted by the group. A number of species show interesting acts of what one may call compassion towards the ill or dying.
As for great cities - check out the insect world?

I think we're back to anthropomorphism. Hey, I have pets and I love Animal Planet and Disney movies too but I also recognize the clear difference between animals and man.

I realize much of this in anecdotal and to some extent there is a level of anthropomorphism regarding interpreting such behaviors, but your arguments regarding the exceptional-ism of humans as a species that somehow inherently gives us alone rights rings hollow to me. Especially given the aspects of humans that you keep highlighting as making us special.
I'm not saying animals have the same mental and reasoning capabilities as us, I highly doubt they wax philosophical about what freedom or rights are...but you should take a closer look at the animal kingdom. There's some exceptional stuff out there.

You're very right, nature is fascinating but what can I say other than to say that some of us this take this figuratively and quite literally.

And we think man, given his dichotomous nature, should be striving to raise himself to be more godlike rather than lowering himself to blend in with the animal kingdom.

On a somewhat related note, wasn't there some ruling about rights for apes in France or something this past year?

Spain is batting leadoff in this bit of lunacy.

 

[A_Wanderer]

How does acknowledging our origins lower ourselves?

You're placing an insurmountable barrier between human beings and other animals, but the evidence that shows rudimentary morality and sociality in other primates undercuts that case.

There is a gap between human beings and other animals, but it is bridged by 6 million years of incremental divergence which produced our well developed faculties.

 

[Irvine511]

And we think man, given his dichotomous nature, should be striving to raise himself to be more godlike rather than lowering himself to blend in with the animal kingdom.

and you do this by torturing Muslims.

 

[A_Wanderer]

We can be more godlike by aspiring to be like Shiva (according to a caricatured western interpretation).

 

[A_Wanderer]

I think we're back to anthropomorphism. Hey, I have pets and I love Animal Planet and Disney movies too but I also recognize the clear difference between animals and man.

What are the differences?

I see a few.
- An advanced language which uses symbols; much greater information content than other forms of animal communication.
- An advanced level of culture; much greater than taught behaviours in animals, it is cumulative because we record our culture in writing.
- Advanced use of technology; much further along the scale than using sticks to get termites.
- A very large brain; made of the same parts as other ape brains.

Our moral intuitions do exist, I don't think they are as immutable and eternal as your theology makes you believe, however developed they may be the existence of moral intuition in other animals demonstrates that this is an evolved trait and not one handed down from God.

 

[INDY500]

How does acknowledging our origins lower ourselves?

When you fail to acknowledge the part that makes us truly unique.

Without that you get PETA claptrap like "Meat is Murder." No, no it isn't. Not unless you're a cannibal.

 

[A_Wanderer]

What part makes us unique, and why isn't meat murder?