Monsanto? - Page 6 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 06-26-2015, 11:48 AM   #76
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 49
Local Time: 11:09 PM
Hi Hawkmoon,
You're right, but you are quoting me out of context since I already answered my own question. I said, "Did I say "this is the final straw"? When did I say that? Ok, I said I have had enough of Bono's political crap and it's putting me off the music".

Elsewhere I said that the Monsanto rumour, if true, is the straw that broke the camel's back. It's just that when BVS commented that I said "final straw" etc., it appeared to be in reference to something else I said. I was trying to clear up confusion....etc.
__________________

__________________
wideawake2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 11:53 AM   #77
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 49
Local Time: 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
You don't remember mentioning Sachs? You don't remember saying you're done? Well then we have much bigger issues.

I'm not going to dissect your long post and go point by point, I don't have the time right now and I'm on my phone.

But from a macro level you seem to be throwing shit on a wall and seeing what sticks, in other words, you're all over the place. Banks are evil, Monsanto may or may not be evil and Bono may or may not be "shilling", we're consenting, his guru is wrong(even though I can't remember bringing him up). I think you should focus more and people may start to engage more.
Hilarious! I take it all back! For some reason, the discussion of banks was making me think of Goldman Sachs. For a moment, I forgot all about Jeffrey! Sorry about that.

I take your point. When I get time I will try to summarise my main points. But it can preliminarily be framed as: "I have serious reservation about Bono's knowledge of development issues in Africa, the ways in which he depoliticises development issues, his involvement with corporations with questionable ethics and which might be harmful to many Africans, and the ways in which U2 fans do or don't give him power and consent to speak on our behalf".
__________________

__________________
wideawake2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 11:55 AM   #78
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 49
Local Time: 11:09 PM
Bono? I never mentioned him at all!

Have a nice day!
__________________
wideawake2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 11:55 AM   #79
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,238
Local Time: 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
In other words yes, you think my employer is literally evil.

You have no clue what you're talking about.

Fuck you, dude.

EDIT: that goes for both of you.
Cool it, Dave.
__________________
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 11:58 AM   #80
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 49
Local Time: 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I mean to lump Sachs in your whole neoliberalism argument is just plain odd.

Sorry, one last thing. Now that I have recalled Jeffrey Sachs and stopped thinking about Goldman Sachs, can you please tell me why this is just plain odd? Jeffrey Sachs is an advocate of neoliberal envelopment practices, after all. And that's understating it. So I don't understand why this seems odd?
__________________
wideawake2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 12:06 PM   #81
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 49
Local Time: 11:09 PM
Ok, this really IS my final comment today. I just look back on a few of my comments. For example:

"Did I say "this is the final straw"? When did I say that?"

It comes across as potentially angry and aggressive, argumentative, etc. Actually, that was not the tone of the voice in my head when typing hastily. Sometimes hastily written words in emails and on forums are not good communication. Suffice to say that I'll try not to let my writing be so ambiguous in future on this forum! Sorry if some of my comments might appear to be aggressive. That's not the intention or real meaning.

Ok, going to be exceptionally busy for a few days, and absent from this doscussion. Have a good weekend everyone!
__________________
wideawake2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 12:14 PM   #82
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: illegitimi non carborundum
Posts: 17,410
Local Time: 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Diemen View Post
Cool it, Dave.
Thanks for ignoring Hollow Island saying "fuck you" to me as well in the very next post.



I take exception to strangers who have no idea what I or my employer actually do telling me that what me and my friends do for a living is directly contributing to the promotion of evil in the world.

I'm outta here. Back to being another cog in the machine of pure malevolence
__________________
DaveC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 12:18 PM   #83
Refugee
 
Hollow Island's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 2,133
Local Time: 11:09 PM
Both WideAwake and I said that people who work for banks aren't necessarily evil....

You could explain what you do and state why your bank is not evil, and you've done nothing to explain why the banking practices I singled out as objectionable are in fact not.
__________________
Hollow Island is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 12:29 PM   #84
Resident Photo Buff
Forum Moderator
 
Diemen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Somewhere in middle America
Posts: 13,238
Local Time: 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
Thanks for ignoring Hollow Island saying "fuck you" to me as well in the very next post.

That's my fault, I responded to you but didn't read the next posts. So yeah, Hollow Island... let's not go eye for eye with insults, please.
__________________
Diemen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 01:50 PM   #85
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wideawake2015 View Post
Sorry, one last thing. Now that I have recalled Jeffrey Sachs and stopped thinking about Goldman Sachs, can you please tell me why this is just plain odd? Jeffrey Sachs is an advocate of neoliberal envelopment practices, after all. And that's understating it. So I don't understand why this seems odd?

His thinking is much more nuanced than that, he calls for aid to work alongside the market and calls for regulation in areas, both are very un-neoliberal.


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 02:15 PM   #86
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 49
Local Time: 11:09 PM
I'm back momentarily... Thanks for your reply, BVS:

Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
His [Jeffrey Sachs] thinking is much more nuanced than that, he calls for aid to work alongside the market and calls for regulation in areas, both are very un-neoliberal.
I see your point. However, neoliberalism can be a catch-all and elusive term, etc. according to my understanding. It is useful but it's overuse (without clear conceptualisation) can mean that it loses meaning and clarity. I am not accusing you of that, but saying that I have a tendency to do that, as do many others. In other words, neoliberalism is itself nuanced etc. That's not to say that there aren't development practices that are tangibly neoliberal. To get to the heart of your comment: I think you are suggesting that aid and the markets are two different things, right? If I understand that correctly then I have to disagree. Aid is such a complex issue with endless misconceptions etc. Aid can in many cases be seen as the oil that keeps the engine of the markets running. Many taxpayers in Western countries believe that aid is some kind of gift given to developing countries. Much of it never leaves the donor countries. The percentage that reaches the recipient countries and then returns to the West in profits is staggering. I will have to look up the statistics on that. Anyway, I suspect you know this and more, as you are clearly well read in this area, and so I would be interested to hear more about the ways in which Sachs can be seen as more nuanced than neoliberal. I would like to add that, regardless of whatever regulations Sachs calls for, his emphasis on the market as a means of development and, if I recall correctly, his lack of emphasis on overarching structural issues (in other words, depoliticisation), is extremely neoliberal.
__________________
wideawake2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 02:34 PM   #87
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,697
Local Time: 09:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by wideawake2015 View Post
I'm back momentarily... Thanks for your reply, BVS:







I see your point. However, neoliberalism can be a catch-all and elusive term, etc. according to my understanding. It is useful but it's overuse (without clear conceptualisation) can mean that it loses meaning and clarity. I am not accusing you of that, but saying that I have a tendency to do that, as do many others. In other words, neoliberalism is itself nuanced etc. That's not to say that there aren't development practices that are tangibly neoliberal. To get to the heart of your comment: I think you are suggesting that aid and the markets are two different things, right? If I understand that correctly then I have to disagree. Aid is such a complex issue with endless misconceptions etc. Aid can in many cases be seen as the oil that keeps the engine of the markets running. Many taxpayers in Western countries believe that aid is some kind of gift given to developing countries. Much of it never leaves the donor countries. The percentage that reaches the recipient countries and then returns to the West in profits is staggering. I will have to look up the statistics on that. Anyway, I suspect you know this and more, as you are clearly well read in this area, and so I would be interested to hear more about the ways in which Sachs can be seen as more nuanced than neoliberal. I would like to add that, regardless of whatever regulations Sachs calls for, his emphasis on the market as a means of development and, if I recall correctly, his lack of emphasis on overarching structural issues (in other words, depoliticisation), is extremely neoliberal.

A strict neoliberal wouldn't believe there's any reason or room for aid.

And yes there are those that profit from aid, but that's a whole other can of worms.

I guess my question to you is; what role do you think the market plays in development, or do you believe it doesn't play any at all?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 02:39 PM   #88
Blue Crack Addict
 
DaveC's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: illegitimi non carborundum
Posts: 17,410
Local Time: 10:09 PM
First of all, I’m not going to reveal exactly who I work for, but let’s say I work in portfolio operations and marketing in the institutional asset management wing of one of the big 5 banks.

I can say with certainty that my bank does not fire employees for zero cause (cause, ya know, we have things called labour laws up here in Canada). I presume you may have meant to say “lays off employees” rather than “fires employees” though. Layoffs happen in absolutely every industry, yes even profitable ones. In a large corporation with many departments and divisions, the corporation overall may be making a lot of money while every department may not be. People in the unprofitable divisions may get laid off because it’s stupid for a company to pay for employees that don’t benefit the company and only cost money. Yeah, it sucks for those employees who lose their job, but if all they’re doing is costing the company money it doesn’t make any sense to keep them around just to be nice. This isn’t a problem unique to banks. Laying off unprofitable workers does not make a corporation “evil”.

Tim Horton’s (in Toronto, at least) very rarely hires locals and the vast majority of locations are staffed by TFWs, because they are paid much less. Again, this isn’t unique to any banks. You should be complaining about the TFW system that allows for this exploitation to occur. In any case, my bank uses absolutely no TFWs and there’s only one major one that I know of that does, and they were eviscerated for it in the media when the policy was announced. It was horrible PR and they lost quite a bit of business over it. Banks can make poor business decisions – this doesn’t make them “evil” either.

My dad worked for a chemical research lab for 15 years and was laid off in 2004. They did it because they could hire a grad student as an intern and pay them a fraction of the cost for a full-time researcher. Before he left, he spent two weeks training the grad student they hired. Again, nothing you’ve said is unique to banks.

And you’re insane if you think the banks deliberately engineered the financial crisis. Every bank hemorrhaged money for many quarters, additional regulations which create compliance obstacles were put into place, and many, many people lost their jobs. There is no fathomable reason why a corporation would willingly engineer a social and financial meltdown – if they wanted to cut staff or costs there were many ways to do it that wouldn’t have cost billions of dollars. It was caused by stupidity, lack of foresight and astounding recklessness but not deliberate malevolence. Nobody wanted the economy to collapse – it was an euphoric bull market before the housing crisis started, why would banks deliberately destroy a financial environment where everyone involved was making money hand over fist? It makes no sense.

I won’t sit here and say I agree with everything the bank does. I’m sure that there’s been plenty of unethical, dishonest, and simply shady shit that’s gone on over the years that I would be aghast at hearing. But again – this applies to almost every corporation on Earth that’s been around long enough. One of our clients is a steel manufacturing firm and we’re 90% sure the treasurer is stealing the employees’ pension plan for his personal use – the account has gone from over $3 million down to just over $200K about $10 to 20 thousand at a time over the past two years and this guy went from driving a Toyota and wearing shirts from the Gap to driving a Maserati and wearing Armani all the time in the same period. We really can’t do anything about it other than document everything because the guy is the legal signing authority for the account, if he says they need the money we have to give it to them unless the bank is in bankruptcy or we have some other legal obligation to restrict redemptions. It’s a steel plant, there are greedheads, assholes, thieves and frauds in every industry.

There’s nothing uniquely infernal about banks, but as Tony Montana said, people need to be able to point at someone or something and say “there. That’s the bad guy.” The bank has become a boogeyman to the general public, but I see very, very few people in the world who keep all their money in a box under the bed.

I am aware you stated that the people who work for the bank are not evil people, but if you say the bank is evil, you are also saying that the work I do to benefit the bank benefits the advancement of evil in the world. You are saying that I am directly and personally responsible for spreading evil into the world just by getting up and going to work in the morning. I’m sorry for swearing at you earlier, but that’s one of the most insulting and demeaning things I’ve ever read on this forum, full stop.

Are banks often dishonest? Sure. Frequently unethical? Undoubtedly.

Pure evil? That’s a bit of a fucking stretch, no?
__________________
DaveC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 03:03 PM   #89
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 49
Local Time: 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
A strict neoliberal wouldn't believe there's any reason or room for aid.

And yes there are those that profit from aid, but that's a whole other can of worms.

I guess my question to you is; what role do you think the market plays in development, or do you believe it doesn't play any at all?


Sent from my iPhone using U2 Interference
Where is the neoliberal members' rulebook? Is that not like saying that a strict Christian wouldn't believe in evolution? Human beings are pragmatic and there is no simple black and white, I believe. Is Donald Trump not a strict Republican (and therefore cannot be called a Republican) when he is offending other Republican candidates? Do some strict vegetarians wear leather shoes (but never eat an animal product) while others are more strict and do neither? Who is to say that the one who is less strict is not a vegetarian? So why is it odd to link Jeffrey Sachs with neoliberalism?

It's not just about profiting from aid, but my main point is how aid is seen in terms of development alongside the market. I don't believe that seeing a need for aid (of which there can be many possible needs to agree with or disagree with) is an indication of whether or not someone is a neoliberal.

I believe that the market can play a role in development, yes. But we need to be honest about needs, motivations, and outcomes. If we pretend that the market is going to help Africa become "developed" like us, then we have to acknowledge that our societies are tremendously unequal and often lack social justice. But this is inconvenient to millionaires who move their money around internationally to avoid paying tax, who claim that there is a consensus of opinion throughout Africa and who fail to acknowledge social structures of inequality within African countries that can be perpetuated and exacerbated by the market and by economic development. No wonder Bono the political activist was sleeping when the Occupy movement was in full swing and has never commented on the bail out of the banks. If we, like Bono and Sachs, say things to the American public such as "Africans can become future consumers of the USA" or "It make sense to give aid because then there will be fewer terrorists", then we are clearly seeing (selling) development in Africa as a business opportunity while at the same time not addressing important questions with regards to terrorism. The link between capitalism and colonialism is clear. Then there is the whole debate about the development industry as a continuation of colonialism. Etc. So, yes, I believe the market can play a role – and that this can lead to positive as well as negative outcomes. But what I object to is there simplification of "markets" and "aid" and so on, in the discussion of development. I object to the depoliticisation of development issues. I object to elites speaking on behalf of others who do not have an opportunity to speak. I object to Bono's "everything is going to be alright" attitude [addition: an argument that "the market is good", when of course it can be good but, Bono, you must admit it can also be bad!] when it never has been ["alright"] and unfortunately it probably never will be. I don't object to trying to make things better, but I believe that's only really possible when we cut the crap and address all the issues and stop the simplified sales talk.
__________________
wideawake2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-26-2015, 03:17 PM   #90
The Fly
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Posts: 49
Local Time: 11:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
First of all, I.....

Are banks often dishonest? Sure. Frequently unethical? Undoubtedly.

Pure evil? That’s a bit of a fucking stretch, no?
Thanks for your long and interesting reply. I don't think anyone here suggested that the banks intended the crash to happen. I certainly don't believe that. But it was reckless behaviour for which banks appear to have been rewarded. This makes people angry. The injustice appears evil. The lack of expression on this by high profile political activists (who freely move their money around the world in order to pay less tax while banging on about social injustice) is maddening. Sorry for the "pure evil" emotive language. Yes, perhaps it's a stretch. Thinking of the connotations of "pure", then "pure evil" is even a contradiction in terms! I'll try to avoid hyperbole in future! Have a good weekend. Now I've REALLY got to get out of here!
__________________

__________________
wideawake2015 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:09 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com