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Old 06-25-2015, 09:33 AM   #16
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Monsanto is unquestionably evil, ...... And anyway, isn't that a disgusting way to refer to a billion people? To boil their worth down to being consumers for a country that is nothing but a mascot for corporate imperialism?
Hi, yes, agree with all your comments!
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Old 06-25-2015, 10:15 AM   #17
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Power matters.
What Bill Gates doesn't know about poverty - /The Rules
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Old 06-25-2015, 10:16 AM   #18
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3 ways humans create poverty - /The Rules
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Old 06-25-2015, 10:24 AM   #19
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John Pilger on Jeffrey Sachs (Bono's guru): "The Harvard economist Jeffrey Sachs designed the "shock therapy" that the IMF and World Bank administered in Bolivia, adding another dimension of poverty and suffering."
Bolivia: a glimpse of freedom
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:03 AM   #20
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wideawake2015, your long post is the best thing I've read on this site.

What I find interesting about shock therapy is that it was administered to the West while the Shock Doctrine was a current bestseller and nobody noticed what was happening. Instead we get a bunch of cheerleaders for the fraudulent practice of "austerity."

The argument that it's OK for U2 to avoid taxes because all corporations do it is insane and negates the idea that humans have moral obligations. Corporations are expected to do whatever the can to increase their profits because that's what they do - they are at odds with responsible governments, society, the planet itself. But U2 aren't an entity built to exploit. They are an artistic entity of people "with a social conscience."

However, Paul McGuinness explained why U2 moved their publishing to the Netherlands: there's a company there that specializes in collecting royalties from around the world. It simplifies things for U2 and guarantees that they'll get the royalties they are owed. That was the incentive for the move according to McG. I'm inclined to believe him because I think U2 are rich enough to not worry about paying a bit more in taxes in Ireland. I don't know why they didn't explain it at the time, though. McG did so in an interview a couple of weeks ago.

Anyway, Bono would be better off hanging out with Raj Patel and Naomi Klein than Jeffery Sachs and Bill Gates, if only because the establishment is responsible for the mess that is the global economic system and he needs to see how the system is the problem, and the establishment just uses the system to increase its wealth and power, not that of the poor and middle class.

It's not an accident that the policies they prescribe have done the opposite of what they said, at least in North America. 30 years of neoliberalism has seen people get shunted from the middle to the lower class, an erosion of public services and well paying jobs, and so on. Yet these people are to be trusted to save Africa? Right. Colonizers are always motivated by the interests of those they dominate.
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:24 AM   #21
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Thank you Hollow_Island. I'm glad I invested the time in writing if it adds something meaningful to the debate (although I suspect there will be a lot of hyper-sensitive knee-jerk reactions from some readers as the day progresses). But I'm looking forward to continuing the discussion with you and others. I hope we can clarify the Bono-Monsanto conspiracy soon!
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:49 AM   #22
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Criticism of economic orthodoxy does tend to get people riled up around here. Watch out!
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:50 AM   #23
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John Pilger on Jeffrey Sachs (Bono's guru): "The Harvard economist Jeffrey Sachs designed the "shock therapy" that the IMF and World Bank administered in Bolivia, adding another dimension of poverty and suffering."
Bolivia: a glimpse of freedom


how much do you know about John Pilger?
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:51 AM   #24
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Thank you Hollow_Island. I'm glad I invested the time in writing if it adds something meaningful to the debate (although I suspect there will be a lot of hyper-sensitive knee-jerk reactions from some readers as the day progresses). But I'm looking forward to continuing the discussion with you and others. I hope we can clarify the Bono-Monsanto conspiracy soon!


so you're looking for people to agree with you?
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Old 06-25-2015, 11:53 AM   #25
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Criticism of economic orthodoxy does tend to get people riled up around here. Watch out!
I love a good discussion!

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Old 06-25-2015, 12:07 PM   #26
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so you're looking for people to agree with you?
No. Because sometimes I am right and sometimes I am wrong. I learn from discussion. I don't want people simply to agree with me. But I look forward to discussions with people who can make intelligent arguments, so I can learn more and challenge or validate my own viewpoints through discussion and exploration. I actually said, "I'm looking forward to continuing the discussion with you and others". "You" being someone who was likeminded; "and others" being people who may or may not be likeminded but who nonetheless can engage in interesting discussion which is mutually beneficial. Rather than discussion with those who make knee-jerk reactions and patronising insults etc. Being accused of writing the "stupidest" post on this forum is a mindless response. Let's discuss the issues in question and not behave like children. That’s all I was meaning.
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Old 06-25-2015, 12:19 PM   #27
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so you're looking for people to agree with you?
Reply 2:
On the contrary. I have actually been hoping I missed the point and that someone can justify Bono's position convincingly, so I can listen to my favourite music of the past 3 decades without that dissatisfying sickening feeling in my stomach.
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Old 06-25-2015, 12:23 PM   #28
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I do not need to do research, as I am a scientist in the field of genetically modified vaccines. So I know how they work and I know what they do. And one of the biggest hurdles of GM vaccines is public acceptance, because they think GM is evil and yucky.... while they have no friggin' clue. So no, you are definitely the one in need for proper research, not me.


And on the tax issue you show you need more research as well.
Ireland has not collapsed, it was simply in crisis just as the rest of Europe. And U2 paying or not paying ONLY THEIR ROYALTY TAX would not have affected that in any way. They only moved their royalties. They still live in Ireland, pay living and income taxes, the U2 company is still in Ireland, they still pay taxes in Ireland.

Wake up.

It's not too late to get educated.
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And if U2 EVER did Hawkmoon live....and the version from the Lovetown Tour, my uterus would leave my body and fling itself at Bono - for realz.
Don't worry baby, it's gonna be all right. Uncertainty can be a guiding light...
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Old 06-25-2015, 12:28 PM   #29
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Wideawake, in reading that "article" it's still just innuendo and rumor. And I find this growing idea that U2 has to address every rumor very odd.

I haven't made any judgements regarding Monsanto, I've seen informed articles on both sides(and some very uninformed). I do believe there is some urban legend tied to Monsanto and they probably don't deserve the boogie man status they have.


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Old 06-25-2015, 12:40 PM   #30
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I do not need to do research, as I am a scientist in the field of genetically modified vaccines. So I know how they work and I know what they do. And one of the biggest hurdles of GM vaccines is public acceptance, because they think GM is evil and yucky.... while they have no friggin' clue. So no, you are definitely the one in need for proper research, not me.
I REITERATE. My bone of contention with Monsanto primarily has NOTHING to do with the GM issue. Please re-read my comments, and those of at least two other people who commented. The GM debate is not all about the science or about levels of public acceptance of the science – it is also about the economics and the industry.


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And on the tax issue you show you need more research as well.
Ireland has not collapsed, it was simply in crisis just as the rest of Europe. And U2 paying or not paying ONLY THEIR ROYALTY TAX would not have affected that in any way. They only moved their royalties. They still live in Ireland, pay living and income taxes, the U2 company is still in Ireland, they still pay taxes in Ireland.
Ireland has not collapsed? Er, I think you will find that the economy crashed, and it was bailed out, which perhaps creates the illusion that it has not collapsed. But, ask Irish tax payers facing austerity. Would it have been helpful for the country and would it have alleviated some of the problems of austerity if U2 had decided NOT to move some of their business elsewhere and had paid more tax in Ireland instead?

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Wake up.

It's not too late to get educated.
Thank you for the advice and for your educated insights. Pleasant chatting with you. I hope when I get educated my teachers are less patronising since I don't find that very conducive to learning.
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