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Old 05-12-2011, 05:46 PM   #166
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Jealousy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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One possible explanation of the origin of jealousy in evolutionary psychology is that the emotion evolved in order to maximize the success of our genes: it is a biologically based emotion (Prinz after Buss and Larsen, 2004, p. 120) selected to foster the certainty about the paternity of one’s own offspring. A jealous behavior, in men, is directed into avoiding sexual betrayal and a consequent waste of resources and effort in taking care of someone else’s offspring.
That doesn't explicitly address jealousy in women, but presumably 'maximizing the success of your genes' could apply just as well there too, since losing the man's sexual interest could mean losing critical childrearing resources. This would also seem to predict that men are more concerned about controlling access to their partner's body, whereas women are more concerned about controlling access to their partner's affections? (In other words, basically what A_W said in one terse sentence way back on Page 1. ) It's not an ethical argument for monogamy, and as with most any 'hardwiring' explanation you'd also have to take into account that humans are highly opportunistic creatures, capable to a great degree of moving into a niche then adapting our behaviors as needed to best exploit its resources and constraints (which we then proceed to elaborately rationalize).
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Old 05-14-2011, 01:50 PM   #167
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The storyline of The Good Wife episode was so great-basically the Sarah Silverman character used the site and cheated on her husband with this guy. She said that they both used it and that it didn't affect their marriage and there was no jealousy and all that. So she ended up being accused of murdering the guy she cheated with because her car was seen at his place. But it turned out to be her husband-and he cut the guy's balls off too

When her character found out it was her husband she literally got all love struck and said "he was jealous" and ran over and hugged and kissed him. Even though he had killed a guy. The actual episode was much better than my lame synopsis, but it was just so well done about this whole issue.

The whole show constantly deals with monogamy, because she's (the Juliana Margulies character) a political wife whose husband was caught cheating on her.
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Old 05-14-2011, 03:01 PM   #168
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I liked the storyline until Silverman found his jealousy-to-the-point-of-murder to be a turn-on. That was too much.

But I love, love, LOVE the show.
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Old 05-17-2011, 05:58 AM   #169
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interesting article on Dominique Strauss-Kahn

France questions itself over Dominique Strauss-Kahn's 'open secret' | World news | The Guardian

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Consensual extramarital sex is a non-story in France, part of the right to a private life protected by fearsome libel and privacy laws. Having a mistress, philandering, even routinely propositioning journalists have been brushed aside for countless political figures. "How many senior male French politicians aren't either a groper, a cheater, a charmer or a serial seducer? And it goes right to the top of the political class," sighed one news editor. "France is still a kind of monarchy that kept the aristocratic morals of the 18th century. The lord of the manor has a right to the women; the king has his mistresses." If more allegations against Strauss-Kahn come to light and lead to criminal charges, it will call into question a taboo in France about speaking out.

Tristane Banon, the novelist and journalist is, according to her lawyer, preparing to go to police alleging Strauss-Kahn sexually assaulted her in 2002. Her mother, Anne Mansouret, a senior Socialist figure, said that she advised her daughter not to file a lawsuit at the time because Strauss-Kahn was a politician with a bright future, as well as a friend of the family. But she said that even the fact that her daughter later spoke out publicly about the attack on TV had left her "traumatised" by the subsequent "harassment" in her professional life over having dared to speak out.
what a horrible "mother"; what a betrayal!
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Old 05-17-2011, 09:51 AM   #170
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Wow that Schwarzenegger sure knows how to be monogamous. Keeping it in house, so to speak.
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Old 05-17-2011, 10:07 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
I liked the storyline until Silverman found his jealousy-to-the-point-of-murder to be a turn-on. That was too much.

But I love, love, LOVE the show.
Yes that was too much, but it did make the point-subtle as a sledgehammer but it did. I love the show too, tonight's episode should be awesome.
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Old 05-17-2011, 12:31 PM   #172
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Wow that Schwarzenegger sure knows how to be monogamous. Keeping it in house, so to speak.
yeah... must be horrible for his poor wife... what an idiot...
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Old 05-30-2011, 02:56 AM   #173
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How Infidelity Affects Kids - The Daily Beast, May 28
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With nearly a quarter of married men and approximately 10 to 15% of women admitting to some form of extramarital activity, Schwarzenegger’s spawn are far from the only children affected by infidelity. Although adulterers are no longer branded with a scarlet “A,” the shame associated with infidelity still very much exists. So it’s no wonder that the adult children of cheaters often struggle with trust issues of their own. “I’m not saying that everyone does it, but 55% of adult children that came from families where one parent was unfaithful ended up being cheaters themselves,” says Dr. Ana Nogales, a clinical psychologist and the author of "Parents Who Cheat: How Children and Adults are Affected When Their Parents Are Unfaithful."

Exactly how children are affected by a parent’s transgressions depends on a number of variables. When children find out about an affair, it’s not just the cheating, but how parents deal with the crisis that can have the most profound effect on their children’s future relationships, says sex and family therapist Dr. Don-David Lusterman, who authored the book "Infidelity: A Survival Guide." “We’re always looking at the context to understand what happened,” he says. “Are we talking about a single act of infidelity, or is it someone who has always done this and just got nailed this time?” How infidelity affects children is complex, says Lusterman, and it’s important to differentiate between two types of cheaters. In the majority of cases, infidelity occurs unintentionally when there’s a communication breakdown in a marriage. A married person normally doesn’t seek out sex, but falls into an affair with a colleague or someone in close proximity because they feel neglected or can’t talk about what’s going on in their marriage, he says. Far less common are womanizers, or people who have a pattern of infidelity that started long before marriage and use sex to feel powerful. “There’s a need to feel worshipped, and if that is to take a sexual form, it’s as addictive as booze,” he says. ...Nogales agrees that while older kids are capable of comprehending the relationship dynamics that might make someone cheat, it’s more difficult to accept womanizing and secrecy. “There is a strong sense of shame about what has happened, especially in adolescents because their identity is developing,” she says. “It’s not easy when you’re trying to show your worth and value to society.”
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According to Lois Braverman, the president of the Ackerman Institute for the Family, infidelity’s impact depends heavily on the parent-child power dynamic established after the affair. Children who are made confidants by the betrayer, or the ones left to comfort the parent who has been betrayed, tend to struggle with anger the most. “Different constellations of where children are placed in their parents’ relationship dilemma is going to influence how they feel,” she says. For instance, young women tend to suffer more when their fathers are caught cheating, suggests Nogales. But their reactions are sometimes counterintuitive: it’s not uncommon for daughters to respond angrily toward their mothers for “allowing” the infidelity. “Sometimes they blame the betrayed parent for being powerless and not being able to give them stability,” says Nogales. ...With younger children, the stakes can be even higher. Lengthy explanations might prove confusing, especially when the big issue is regaining trust after the image of their “perfect” parent is shattered. “The person that you trusted the most lied to you, so everything becomes suspicious,” says Nogales. “If the person you trust teaches one thing and acts totally differently, you wonder how much the world is lying to you. Your parents are the world.” This is, in part, why the story a parent chooses to tell about an affair has a profound impact on a child. "It’s about secrecy and shame. That’s the poison. It’s the deceit that makes it toxic,” says Dr. Azmaira Maker, a clinical psychologist who specializes in relationships and family therapy.
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...Children of cheaters are by no means destined for infidelity. Yet without allowing them time to grieve over the loss of their “ideal” parent and addressing feelings of betrayal and anger, some might unconsciously go on to repeat the negative patterns. Even sons who don’t want to replicate the sins of their fathers may find themselves drawn to parallel situations. “Some people have what’s called a reaction formation. Their development is not about themselves, but about a reaction to their parents,” says Lusterman. “It doesn’t tell you what you want to be like, only tells you what you don’t want to be like. People who say they’ll never do what their father did end up doing exactly what their father did if you’re working with a negative model.”

According to Maker, there’s not enough long-term data to make generalizations regarding the effects of infidelity on a large sample of children as they grow into adults, yet patterns are clear. “It’s not just a behavior, it’s a whole dynamic of relationships,” says Maker, comparing it to patterns that occur in children whose parents were abusive or alcoholics.
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Old 06-22-2011, 09:40 AM   #174
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Huffington Post

by Vicki Larson

Watching the Anthony Weiner scandal unfold, it was hard not to wonder how a smart, accomplished, beautiful woman like Huma Abedin got herself involved with a guy like Weiner.

After all, the New York Congressman was dishonest to Abedin, a longtime aide to Hillary Rodham Clinton, in a messy, public way -- confessing to sexting and sending lewd photos to a young coed after lying about it for 10 days -- after less than a year of marriage. It's probably not what a newlywed would expect, especially one who's pregnant with their first child.

But, sexting sexcapades aside, the 46-year-old Weiner, whether you find him handsome or not, is a fit, intelligent, passionate, promising politician with a six-figure income who had a reputation of a ladies' man and was even named a Cosmo eligible bachelor -- the kind of man that many, many women are drawn to.

And that's where Abedin and other smart, beautiful, accomplished women often make their mistake. The more financially independent women become, the more they prefer good-looking men. But they don't just want their partners to be hotties; they want them to be masculine, physically fit, loving, educated, a few years older and making the big bucks. Oh, and they also have to really want to be a hubby and daddy.

That's a tall order.

And, evidently, it's working against us. Attractive men don't make the best husbands, according to researchers. Guys who are rated as the most masculine -- a billboard for a man's good genes -- tend to have more testosterone, and men with higher testosterone levels are 43 percent more likely to get divorced than men with normal levels, 31 percent more likely to split because of marital problems and 38 percent more likely to cheat. In other words, they may be better cads than dads.

We'd be smarter if we sought out guys who are uglier than we are because researchers have found that couples in which the woman is hotter than the guy are happier than if the situation is reversed. And since quite a few women have been telling Weiner how "hot" he is, it's clear that neither Abedin nor Weiner got that memo.

Of course, hottie women can also "optimize their looks to find other partners if she's unhappy," says Rob Burriss, a professor at England's University of Chester. Hello, Weiner? And Abedin, 35 -- one of Time magazine's "40 under 40" young stars in politics -- was considered a catch when Weiner started pursuing her a few years ago.

But who can blame her? She, like so many women -- and men -- pick a mate based on pretty predictable factors, dating back to caveman days when all we were trying to do was survive and keep our species going, according to physical anthropologist and Why Him? Why Her? author Helen Fisher, who has been studying human courtship for decades. We're drawn to guys like Weiner because they have good genes we can pass on to our kids. The downside is that we take a huge risk on whether he's going to be sexually faithful to us.

At the same time, who can blame the women who flirted with Weiner and who commented on how "hot" he is; women are more attracted to guys in relationships because they have "proven they can commit," says Ian Kerner, a sex and relationship therapist, and author (She Comes First: The Thinking Man's Guide to Pleasuring a Woman). It's likely that we'll see more male poaching in the future -- "research shows that in societies where women are economically powerful, the more sexually and socially aggressive they are," says Fisher.

Regardless of whom we pick -- handsome or ugly -- chances are we're going to be struggling sometime in our fourth year of marriage, Fisher notes. Her research of divorce statistics from 62 countries, dating to 1947, indicates that the seven-year itch is really a four-year itch -- about the time it takes to raise a baby past toddlerhood. "To me, it clearly suggested that divorce might not be a cultural malaise, but an aspect of our inherited mating behavior," she says.

So, now that Abedin evidently has Weiner's good genes, she can either stick it out another few years or split from Weiner now, before their unborn baby will have memories of the divorce, and while she's still young and attractive enough to snag another mate.

This time, perhaps she should go ugly.



This post originally cited Satoshi Kanazawa's 2008 blog post on how attractive men don't make good husbands, but has been updated to reference Faceresearch.org's 2010 study, among others, instead. - Vicki Larson
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Old 06-22-2011, 11:55 AM   #175
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^ Satoshi Kanazawa is the guy who recently got heavily bashed (from within his own field, evolutionary psych) for claiming research shows black women to be "objectively less attractive" than other women; I'd be automatically wary of any claims that relied on him as a key source.

Anthony Weiner is not what I'd call drop-dead gorgeous, and I can't imagine I'm alone in that assessment. If there's anything to the alleged evolutionary psych claims here, perhaps it has more to do with the personality attributes generally associated with "ladies' men" than with exceptional good looks. There does seem to be a very particular sort of competitiveness and drivenness associated with the "type," and to some women that may be highly desirable in and of itself.
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Old 06-22-2011, 12:05 PM   #176
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ew, Weiner is what i would call a total creep! repulsive even!
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Old 06-22-2011, 12:54 PM   #177
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Weiner does seem like the male equivalent of a "butterface."

i agree, he doesn't have conventionally attractive facial features, but it's also clear that he's spent an enormous amount of time working on himself below the neck and pumping, primping, plucking, and engorging himself into someone who is going to look very attractive in photos intended for sexting.

again, so interesting how the internet changes all this, especially how we present our "assets" and how we're able to present certain assets that would be unavailable in a face-to-not-so-attractive-face encounter.
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:15 PM   #178
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Oh, true, for sure having a very fit body enhances whatever visual appeal nature gave you, for both men and women. And butterface might be a little harsh--I don't find him glaringly unattractive physically, it's just that I'm surprised by the (article's) implication that women in general would look at him and think "Hottie!" based on fitness alone. Which is why I was bringing up the ("alpha"?) personality thing--admittedly, not sure how clearly those qualities might translate in cyberspace, but in real life it's just been my impression that women who're attracted to reputed "ladies' men" are responding as much to a certain personality type as to these men's looks, which as far as I can tell run the gamut from ho-hum to eye candy, body included. Actually, a few good male friends of mine over the years have (probably deservedly) been labeled that way, and though I'm not personally attracted to such men as partners (their underlying, and obvious, Me-Firstness is a turnoff romantically), I think I can see how the qualities that make them appealing as friends to many (men and women alike) might translate into sexual and romantic appeal for a certain kind of woman--in their favor, they're usually charismatic, witty, incisive, always engaged in interesting things that they're filled with enthusiasm for, and when they turn their full attention to you, you feel like you're getting 1000% rather than the 100% ordinary mortals can manage. The determination to be as physically accomplished as possible, to me that just seems like an extension of the overall personality type. But like I said, I'll grant I'm not sure to what extent those qualities actually translate through tweets, emails and brief media appearances (though I strongly suspect they translate quite well, if you've got the eye for them)...
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:27 PM   #179
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Satoshi Kanazawa is the guy who recently got heavily bashed (from within his own field, evolutionary psych) for claiming research shows black women to be "objectively less attractive" than other women; I'd be automatically wary of any claims that relied on him as a key source.
I didn't even remember that was the same guy, I guess that's why she changed that to the "instead".

To me Anthony Weiner is not attractive at all. My feeling is that he falls into the politician/rock star/famous person who suddenly becomes hot to some women because of what he is. Of course some women could think he's physically attractive. We all have our own subjective tastes.

Of course intelligence, humor, and other qualities can also be "hot". Don't know exactly how much that played into the sexting stuff that was going on there.
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Old 06-22-2011, 02:30 PM   #180
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--in their favor, they're usually charismatic, witty, incisive, always engaged in interesting things that they're filled with enthusiasm for, and when they turn their full attention to you, you feel like you're getting 1000% rather than the 100% ordinary mortals can manage.

which sounds very much like a politician, and more specifically like Bill Clinton. i don't think anyone really finds him conventionally attractive, but i do know a few people who have met him at least in passing, and his personal charisma is apparently extraordinary, especially should you shake his hand, and as you mentioned, it's that 1000% interest in you at that moment that makes people go weak in the knees.

seems to tie back to that NYT article i posted earlier about potential differences between the motivations for a man or a woman seeking office.
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