Merkel says no to muslims - U2 Feedback

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Old 10-18-2010, 12:51 PM   #1
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Merkel says no to muslims

Merkel says German multi-cultural society has failed - Yahoo! News

Wow.
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Old 10-18-2010, 01:30 PM   #2
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Well, your headline is putting it in a bit too simple, Wilderesque terms, which are not entirely correct.
While I strongly disagree with her and don't see "Multikulti" having failed in its entirety, I cannot help but defend her against claims that she says no to muslims in general.
Then again, when I read that she said who doesn't embrace the Christian values has no place in Germany, I thought "Oh shit, I have to leave the country!" It made me wonder which Christian values to embrace exactly.
Maybe a priest could help me with that question, but I have a feeling I don't really belong to his target group anymore.
As many other European countries, Germany also has problems with some of its immigrants. Mostly those living here in third generation, who are structurally disadvantaged and are neither fully accepted here nor in their home countries. We also have poor immigration sometimes from the first generation on, when people never learned the language and still live the way they left their original home countries (a point Gul raised as well). I felt bad when at the recent soccer match Germany - Turkey Turkish fans in the stadium booed at Mesut Özil every time he was in possession of the ball, because three years ago he decided to play for Germany instead of Turkey. That's a very poor showing by them.
But those problems are grounded in fundamental mistakes that have been made back in the 1960s when the first guest workers from Italy, Greece and Turkey started to come, by invitation, to Germany. The government always saw them as extra working force for those jobs the Germans wouldn't do, as in those days we had virtual full employment and thus people could choose where they would want to work. First, we brought them here but never provided for them going back if times get rough, thinking the economy would always be as strong as it was back then. It shouldn't surprise anyone that when the economy faltered in the 1970s, there was little intention by the Turkish immigrants to go back into the impoverished towns where they grew up, for economical reasons, but also because their families back in Turkey depended on the monthly checque. Second, when those guest workers came here, the government allotted them homes in the main cities, such as Berlin, but didn't allow them to move and settle freely within the cities. That is why we now have city districts where the majority of people is with Turkish or Arabic background and Germans are the minority.
We failed to establish any real form of immigration infrastructure until sometime in the 1990s, and even then what was done was only very poor and chronically underfunded.
This is not to say that the immigrants who refused to learn the language, refused to look for good education for their children and refused to integrate into the society they chose as their new homes, and it most definitely doesn't excuse any small kid to call me an asshole for being a German, or brothers killing their sisters for having a German boyfriend.
But it shows that we are facing a very complex situation, where a simple "Mulitkulti has failed" is not going to cut it.
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Old 10-18-2010, 02:26 PM   #3
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this was disappointing.
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:10 PM   #4
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it's not working
reactions from society teaches us this much, whether we agree with the sentiments behind it or not

so yeah, it could be labelled a failure
perhaps it's even the best label for some progress to finally be made on this topic
we need new ideas
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:09 PM   #5
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Wonder how many pages of comments would be here if President Obama said this?
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Old 10-18-2010, 06:13 PM   #6
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Wow don't know what to say to that. I'm really surprised at what she has said.
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Old 10-18-2010, 06:27 PM   #7
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I not buying it.


Quote:
Merkel says nine to muslims
would have been more believable.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:08 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vincent Vega View Post
Well, your headline is putting it in a bit too simple, Wilderesque terms, which are not entirely correct.
While I strongly disagree with her and don't see "Multikulti" having failed in its entirety, I cannot help but defend her against claims that she says no to muslims in general.
Then again, when I read that she said who doesn't embrace the Christian values has no place in Germany, I thought "Oh shit, I have to leave the country!" It made me wonder which Christian values to embrace exactly.
Maybe a priest could help me with that question, but I have a feeling I don't really belong to his target group anymore.
As many other European countries, Germany also has problems with some of its immigrants. Mostly those living here in third generation, who are structurally disadvantaged and are neither fully accepted here nor in their home countries. We also have poor immigration sometimes from the first generation on, when people never learned the language and still live the way they left their original home countries (a point Gul raised as well). I felt bad when at the recent soccer match Germany - Turkey Turkish fans in the stadium booed at Mesut Özil every time he was in possession of the ball, because three years ago he decided to play for Germany instead of Turkey. That's a very poor showing by them.
But those problems are grounded in fundamental mistakes that have been made back in the 1960s when the first guest workers from Italy, Greece and Turkey started to come, by invitation, to Germany. The government always saw them as extra working force for those jobs the Germans wouldn't do, as in those days we had virtual full employment and thus people could choose where they would want to work. First, we brought them here but never provided for them going back if times get rough, thinking the economy would always be as strong as it was back then. It shouldn't surprise anyone that when the economy faltered in the 1970s, there was little intention by the Turkish immigrants to go back into the impoverished towns where they grew up, for economical reasons, but also because their families back in Turkey depended on the monthly checque. Second, when those guest workers came here, the government allotted them homes in the main cities, such as Berlin, but didn't allow them to move and settle freely within the cities. That is why we now have city districts where the majority of people is with Turkish or Arabic background and Germans are the minority.
We failed to establish any real form of immigration infrastructure until sometime in the 1990s, and even then what was done was only very poor and chronically underfunded.
This is not to say that the immigrants who refused to learn the language, refused to look for good education for their children and refused to integrate into the society they chose as their new homes, and it most definitely doesn't excuse any small kid to call me an asshole for being a German, or brothers killing their sisters for having a German boyfriend.
But it shows that we are facing a very complex situation, where a simple "Mulitkulti has failed" is not going to cut it.

Very valid points there. I am an immigrant in Germany - I have been here for 2.5 years. And what have I seen in the time since I have been here is that the ones who bitch and complain the most are the one who simply refuse to intergrate themselves. As far as I am concerned, if you are not willing to learn a language and intergrate into the society, then you shouldn't move to a foreign country in the first place. I am sorry, but it is that simple. Only when you interact with other cultures will you learn to be open to those cultures - you will learn something new, something different. Living in a foreign country yet choosing to only hang out with people from your own culture and/or background, closes the doors to many other things.
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:41 PM   #9
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If I lived in a foreign country. I would learn the language and would want to be a valuable part of their society.

My neighbors are from Eygpt. They speak fluent english. Both work and pay taxes. They are of a great value to my country. There children attended public schools, are excellent students. One goes to a university and the other, will attend after high school. She wants to be a doctor.
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Old 10-21-2010, 07:45 PM   #10
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When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:01 PM   #11
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I agree, Pearl. I would certainly learn german if I lived in Germany. I wouldn't expect everyone in Germany to speak my native language. Which is english.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:06 PM   #12
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I think realistically speaking, sometimes that is easier said than done, even when people have the best intentions to integrate into their new communities.

How many of us posting here speak multiple languages completely fluently and can really appreciate the difficulties and cultural shocks of emigration?

I guess I'm a bit more laissez-faire on this issue.
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:09 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pearl View Post
When in Rome, do as the Romans do.
are you saying we should feed the Christians to the lions?
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Old 10-21-2010, 08:15 PM   #14
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I think realistically speaking, sometimes that is easier said than done, even when people have the best intentions to integrate into their new communities.

How many of us posting here speak multiple languages completely fluently and can really appreciate the difficulties and cultural shocks of emigration?

I guess I'm a bit more laissez-faire on this issue.
I understand what you are saying and of course, it does take some time. To learn a new language, culture, etc. But, there are those who are going to refuse to do it. I have some spanish speaking people in my neighborhood, who refuse to speak english. Their children need to know it for school. And if you have lived in a country for several years. You should have a working knowledge of the primary language. Spanish to english is much easier than Arabic to english. Heck, even I can read some spanish and haven't taken a course in it for years.
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Old 10-22-2010, 08:28 AM   #15
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are you saying we should feed the Christians to the lions?
What's with you and your sarcasm?
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