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Old 11-06-2010, 10:15 PM   #31
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we have the same problems here in Belgium. Immigration has failed big time. The 2 biggest cities are flooded by immigrants (there are more immigrant than Belgians) The most popular name for newborns is Mohammed

The problem here is that muslims complain that they can't get a job, they have no money etc... When 95% of the women in their families don't work (because it's their culture ) About 90% of them only speak arabic at home. And the boys are allowed to be on the streets and do whatever they want. Causing the fact that there are gangs of kids of 13 and 14 years who rob and annoy women and other people.

I'm a teacher in a primary school and I have to say that 95% of the parents hardly speak our language. Most of them never come to a school evening at the beginning of the year. 99% of them does not participate in any activity at school. We have a large group of parents who organize things, sadly we only have one muslim mother in that large group.

The children mostly (let's not say always) have huge language problems...because they don't speak our language at home.

Where I live, it's a smaller city; most catholic schools have 20-30% of muslims. There is even a school, that was an elite school before, which now has 95% muslims. And it's called St-Joseph. How about that? I have taught there for a couple of weeks (I even had to teach catholic religion-which is not my favourite, I'm baptised but that's about it, nevertheless I gave the lessons with commitment because most of them are about values and not Jesus) It was absolutely horrible. It was crowd control instead of teaching. The kids hardly spoke the language and had no discipline at all.

Where I work now, we usually have disciplinary problems with muslims boys. Girls are fine, they aren't allowed much at home. But a lot of those boys have absolutely no respect for women or even teachers.

On the other hand, I now have 2 muslims children in my class, and both parents came to the school evening, both of them speak are language. Finally some people who have integrated. But they are very hard to find.

Sometimes I see parents who have been living here for 20-30 years and they don't speak our language, not a word! Most men marry a young women from Turkey or Marocco because the muslims women over here are too emancipated in their eyes. They need a women who stays at home, keeps quiet, does the cooking, has children etc... There's been a documentary about it on tv...I just don't understand it... Things are going very wrong over here. I'm not a racist, because I have muslim friends, who are integrated.
Some of them even complain that other muslims watch them constantly and tell them not to drink or smoke or go out late. One of them even votes for an extreme right party because she thinks a lot of them abuse the system.

There are even streets where the cops won't go anymore because it's too dangerous...welcome to Belgium I guess
Sorry, no sympathy from this quarter. You guys made your bed - now lie in it. Brussels for years now has been the fount of projecting centralised government, neoliberalism and multiculturism on the rest of Europe, whether they want it or not. If you don't like the EU, then chuck the bastards out, and reclaim your own country, just don't go for the easy and downright cowardly answer of blaming it on the Muslims, because they are not the ultimate source of your problems.
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:20 PM   #32
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and the tea party says there's nothing to learn off europe!
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Old 11-06-2010, 10:29 PM   #33
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and the tea party says there's nothing to learn off europe!
Merkel is a deeply cynical and power mad politician that will happily exploit fears of immigrants for the sake of power. She hails from a country that previously has given us other power mad politicians in the past.

Merkel says no to Muslims - I say no to her faded grandiloquent dreams of being Chancellor of a Greater United Europe. I don't consider myself European - never have and never will. Merkel can stick her racist nonsense up her fat Teutonic ass, quite frankly.
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Old 11-07-2010, 07:17 AM   #34
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She hails from a country that is no more.
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Old 11-07-2010, 09:36 AM   #35
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Hello herci,

thank you for taking time to write this and share your experiences.

FYM benefits greatly from having different points of view.
I don't have much to contribute, here in California, most of the complaining is about Latino immigration.

If I moved to Morocco or Turkey and lived their for even 10 years, I don't think I would be able to abandon my western culture.
Hi,

I'm sure if I would move to Marocco or Turkey I wouldn't be able to adapt to the muslim culture. But of course I don't choose to go and live there. I also feel like that 'culture' is way behind the western culture. Like catholicism in the early 20th century was. (women not being equal to men etc..) I'm not even saying that those people should abandon their culture. We just have to show them that their 'culture' is often abused by certain men who have a lot of power in the muslim community. Is wearing a head scarf something that is written in the koran? There have been so many discussions about it. My mother travelled to Turkey about 6 times and a guide told her that in the beginning women wore a head scarf to protect theirselves from the heat. Even in Turkey young women have stopped wearing it. Here is Belgium almost every muslim woman wears one? Why? Because most of the muslims in Belgium are far more extreme then those in their home countries.

I have seen girls where I went to school who wore a headscarf when they arrived at the school gates (their father brought them) and they instantly removed it when their father was out of their view. In the evening they put it on again so their father wouldn't notice. I had a friend who was 20. Quite western, I thought, suddenly I stopped hearing her, a year later I saw her again, she had to go to Turkey, choose a men amongst 5 choices or so. He came to Belgium. They started a kebab business (as a lot of them do) and she got pregnant. I couldn't even imagine winding up in such a situation.

You'd think that younger generations would change things, but they have no choice, there's so much pressure from their family. (mostly their brothers and fathers). We know several muslim girls, who want to marry a Belgian man, who even have a relationship with them. But they are scared to hell that their family would find out. They said their brothers would beat the sh*t out of that man and they would no longer be part of the family. Some of them work very hard, have to give all the money to their parents and brothers. Brothers don't work altough they have a diploma and they can get a job. But they prefer to make quick money and deal drugs and all sorts of that stuff.
They are controlled constantly. As I see it now...it doesn't look good at all.

We have cities like Antwerp and Brussels where there are muslim only neighbourhoods. Sort of the chinatown things like in america. The problem is that there is so much crime over there. Belgians move away, because they are constantly harassed, they are scared to leave the house after 7PM. You can't leave your car on the street because your window is smashed several times a week by 10 year olds who wander on the streets in the evening or at night. Even if you drive a 20 yr old car, and you leave open every drawer in your car so they can see there is nothing worth to steal they smash the windows. People are so frustrated in certain places.

In one of the best selling magazines in Belgium they have done survey amongst muslims. And 80% of them wouldn't allow their children to marry a non muslim. Isn't that racism? So as long as they keep getting their husbands and wives from their home countries nothing will change.

There is also a lot of hypocrisy about relationships. Muslims girls have to be a virgin when they marry. But not the men. They mess around with Belgian girls. Several times those guys tried to hit om me. I was standing at a bus station once, and one came up asked me if I had a boyfriend and simply asked : do you want a relationship with me just like that...
I once walked alone in the city at around 12PM a 3 of those guys came closer and they always start talking to you and laughing and try to annoy you. I just nodded hello and walked a bit faster. There have been numerous cases of women and young who have been harassed by those guys. So I was lucky they didn't follow me. They always mention the fact that other men have to leave their sisters alone, or they would get agressive. But they do those things to Belgian women all the time, the reason they give is because we are western, so we are sort of whores in their eyes. And we don't wear a headscarf, some of us drink and smoke, we go out late...that is all very wrong in their eyes and that gives them a reason to annoy us. We are looking for trouble.

One of my friends had a relationship with a muslim. of course his parents didn't know. She thought she would end up being married with him. About 3 years later he left her to marry a girl of his home country. She got used.

My mother had a relationship with someone who lived in turkey. He kept asking for money, she gave him some because he really was poor. Altough he worked. After a 2 year relationship she found out he was married to a young virgin. If my mother didn't out, she would still be travelling to turkey...

At my previous school; a lot of those families didn't pay the school bills. When we went to the sea for a week, a kid even had the choice. Go to the sea with his class or get a playstation. of course he chose the last. Then the parents told the school they had no money for that kind of trips and the school ends up paying for us. Because they think every child is equal and they all should have the chance to do these things... So many examples..so frustrating! A lot of them go to catholic schools, because it's the closest school in the neighbourhood. BUT when we have a service in church most of them are not allowed to enter the church of their parent. But hello they go to a catholic school. A minority is respectful and goes to the service but they don't participate in prayers and so on.

A kid of my class has muslim parents but they are adapted without losing their culture. they eat what we eat. They don't complain about the food at school. Because it's not halal. They even eat porc. I heard when they go to the butcher and ask for porc their whole street shouts bad stuff at them. (the street is a muslim street) It's called social control.

Certain swimming pools have special hours for muslim women, because their men don't allow them to swim when other men are nearby.
I feel like the whole country is adapting to muslim society instead of the opposite.

My opinion: if you move to another country, you have to
-learn the language and just at least try to speak it.
-go to the stores of the country, and not just all the muslim stores
-accept the culture in the country where you live in

You don't have to get rid of your own culture, you can still eat and drink whatever you want. You can keep you religion. Speak your language with your family. Although you have to try to speak the country language with your children once in a while.
And adapt your clothing style a bit to the style of the country.
I find it totally unacceptable that women wear head scarves of burka's because I find it discriminating against women. There are even children (starting age 10) who have to wear them. You're not telling me, it is their choice. It's their parents choice. And it looks bloody horrible too.
And you see that they are not comfortable wearing them.
I sometimes see african women who wear their colorfull dresses and they look nice... see they still keep their culture... but they are not discriminated.

I must say, I think in 20-30 years. The majority will be muslims in Belgium. And that is a danger to our democracy and the equality between men and women.
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Old 11-07-2010, 01:26 PM   #36
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I heard that in Holland, Muslim men attack and even stab women whom they consider to be dressed inappropriately. Is this true?

I admit I agree with herci about the attitudes some Muslims have about other cultures, particularly Western. I noticed it while I was in college. Some of them seemed to think that their culture and religion was more superior to everyone else's. Some weren't shy about their attitudes towards women. One of my media professors would tell us about the Muslim students he had in his other class (he had a lot of Muslims in there) and how the guys would write misogynist papers. For example, one guy wrote that his favorite TV show was The Simpsons because it showed a woman staying at home and not working. There were even times where I would be at the college cafeteria or bookstore, and I would be standing behind a Muslim guy and he would flip out that a woman stood so close to him (I was as far away from him as I would to any other person).

When I was working in retail during my college days, I found it difficult to deal with some of the Muslim female customers. Because I did not wear a headscarf or would wear short sleeved shirts, those women would either avoid eye contact altogether or sneer at me like I was the dirt beneath their feet. Nice, right?

I also have noticed hypocrisy with some Muslims. They would complain about their women being sneered at for wearing headscarves, yet they would sneer at Christian crosses worn around people's necks or Catholics wearing their ashes on Ash Wednesday. I mean, these people would complain about prejudice against their religion, yet they would display prejudice against other religions.

I am concerned about where the world is going with Muslims taking over Europe and other Western places. Based on what I've been reading - in the NY Times, Time magazine and other media outlets - it seems like Europe is headed for another time where theocracy rules and women are oppressed.

Not too long ago, I watched the Irish film "The Magdalene Sisters" which was about how girls considered to be immoral in the eyes of Catholic Ireland were sent to slave labor at laundries in convents. The last one closed in 1996, according to the movie. Would another one open if Muslims continue to not assimiliate in the country they chose to live in?
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Old 11-07-2010, 04:02 PM   #37
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I heard that in Holland, Muslim men attack and even stab women whom they consider to be dressed inappropriately. Is this true?
This sounds being put in a too generalised way. What is true, in many countries, among others Holland, there have been cases of honour killings or repressions up to actual attacks against muslim girls who have adapted a Western "lifestyle" or are dating Germans, Dutch etc. I wouldn't know of any cases in Holland, or elsewhere, where they are running around sytematically attacking inappropriately dressed women.

The signs of Europe being taken over by Muslims and us becoming a theocracy, I would be curious of such articles. Despite the discussed issue of a lack of integration and conflicts between the religions, it's nowhere as bad as that. What did those articles say that you concluded such a dark picture?

This intolerance towards our Western culture, or the Christian religion, is certainly very present among those groups that also attack others or commit honour killings. On the other hand you have a religion, Christianity, which praises itself of being pretty much the definition of tolerance, yet has a hard time tolerating any other religion themselves. Headscarves etc. in schools should be banned, yet they are protesting whenever a state wants to ban crosses displayed in schools, arguing with our Christian heritage. About one third of our population don't care either for the one nor for the other.
This kind of hypocrisy is present among both sides.
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Old 11-07-2010, 04:10 PM   #38
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What did those articles say that you concluded such a dark picture?
It was an impression I got while reading about Sharia laws happening in British towns populated by Muslims, gangs in Denmark going around raping women. Maybe I concluded too dark of a picture, but with Europe making strides towards secularism, I could see as the Muslim population increases (since they are having more children than non-Muslims according to the U.N.) that direction would be challenged because some Muslims say their religion is a theocracy.

But at the same time, I've read articles that say plenty of European Muslims don't care much for their religion and have adopted secularism. So who knows what sort of future Europe would have?
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:18 PM   #39
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Birth rates in most European countries are in fact very low, and generally higher among the Muslim population, that's right. But even with today's birth rates it would take a number of generations until the number of Muslims would be greater than that of non-Muslims.
That argument, however, has been made time and again. In Northern-Ireland Unionists used to scare the Protestants citing the birth statistics for Catholics and Protestants because Catholics produced more children. So it was said in so and so many years they will outpopulate us.
It's a common scare-tactic where you just extrapolate statistics using a linear model. There's this popular joke about the development of horse dung in the city of London. If it were to increase at current rates (of 1860s), today the entire city would be covered in horse dung.
Such developments are hardly linear. Also, by the time the Muslims would outnumber us, I doubt integration of those still matters any. That will be the grandchildren of today's kids.

And it's also true, there is great numbers of Muslims, as well as people from other religious and ethnic backgrounds, you cannot tell apart from the "natives" but by name. Their number is most probably greater than that of those who are not willing to integrate, and thus causing these problems.
Our greatest hindrance to integration is the getthoisation in many cities, where a culture can manifest that is not interested in adapting to their new surroundings. And the fact that no matter how good in school you are, if you have a certain last name and a certain street address, you won't find employment.
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Old 11-07-2010, 06:40 PM   #40
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Birth rates in most European countries are in fact very low, and generally higher among the Muslim population, that's right. But even with today's birth rates it would take a number of generations until the number of Muslims would be greater than that of non-Muslims.
That argument, however, has been made time and again. In Northern-Ireland Unionists used to scare the Protestants citing the birth statistics for Catholics and Protestants because Catholics produced more children. So it was said in so and so many years they will outpopulate us.
It's a common scare-tactic where you just extrapolate statistics using a linear model. There's this popular joke about the development of horse dung in the city of London. If it were to increase at current rates (of 1860s), today the entire city would be covered in horse dung.
Agree with you here. It's just so simplistic. The Protestants vs Catholics in Northern Ireland comparison is an interesting one.
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:19 PM   #41
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Sorry, no sympathy from this quarter. You guys made your bed - now lie in it. Brussels for years now has been the fount of projecting centralised government, neoliberalism and multiculturism on the rest of Europe, whether they want it or not. If you don't like the EU, then chuck the bastards out, and reclaim your own country, just don't go for the easy and downright cowardly answer of blaming it on the Muslims, because they are not the ultimate source of your problems.
A large amount of the Belgians also have no sympathy for what happened. It is actually the fault of the politics. About 20 years ago when immigration started to rise, there was a new party, that is extreme right. The other parties thought that party was racist. Although that party really talked about the problems at the time and if we kept on doing what we were things would get out of hand. So there was a cordon sanitaire, a blockage from all the other parties againt the extreme right one. Thus....all the other parties, joined forces and always had the power and if anyone ever talked about an immigrant or muslim problem everybody pointed the finger at that person and said Oh you vote for that extreme right party. Hence why nobody dared to discuss those issues anymore. Some even said, if that party had power they would do things like Hitler.
I must say, some member of that party had a strange and dubious past but they adressed the problems. A lot of Belgians got really tired of the bad politics and the denial of problems and they started voting massively for that party. There was even a black sunday. 6 years ago where the party got 30% !! of the votes. But they weren't allowed to do anything as all the other parties joined forces to block them. And so it goes on and on. The regular people are extremely frustrated by all this. We didn't want this. But politics did it. And now they are slightly realising what is wrong. Another right party who is not extreme. But wants a separation of control in Belgium (between the flemish and the wallonians) had also 30% of the votes and they are trying for 6 months to form a government and it still hasn't worked...so there we go again...

The problems with the muslims is that they all live in ghetto's, raise their own shops, put arabic language on the windows, and want more and more. There are even mc donalds who only serve halal meat. To be honest, I don't want to eat that. Because they way they kill the animals in halal factories are often horrible. But because a minority wants it they get it.

Also about being more muslims then Belgians. I have to say 15 years ago you hardly saw any muslims. Maybe 5% of the schools had muslims. Now it's 30% on the average. (certain places over 90%) Take another 15 years...I think I will be right. They have a lot more children then the Belgians. The birth number has gone up the last 2 years. Most of the newborns are muslims. They have 3-7 children. The average Belgian 1 or 2.
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Old 11-08-2010, 12:46 PM   #42
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This relates to the problem that I am having with my local Catholic Church. We have a Hispanic Pastor, a Hispanic Associate Pastor. an Indian Associate Pastor and a Vietnamese Deacon. I have trouble understanding any of them.
Our church has a Spanish and Vietnamses mass.
The Pastor's main ministry is to the Hispanic community. Many, many people are leaving this church or have already left.
I understand why we need diversity but these masses in Spanisha and Vietnamese, the result is not diversity but division.
Because of the separate languae masses, the rest of the parish does not get a chance to know or work with these groups and vice versa. I don't think this is doing the immigrants or the parish as a whole any favor at all, it's keeping us all separate. And the whole idea of the Catholic Church is supposed to be that we are all "one". The word "catholic" itself means universal. It's sad to see what is happening.
agreed. they should go back to just doing it in latin. then everyone will be confused.
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Old 02-11-2011, 05:54 PM   #43
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Sarkozy and Cameron both denounced multiculturalism this week:



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"My answer is clearly yes, it is a failure," he said in a television interview when asked about the policy which advocates that host societies welcome and foster distinct cultural and religious immigrant groups.
"Of course we must all respect differences, but we do not want... a society where communities coexist side by side.
"If you come to France, you accept to melt into a single community, which is the national community, and if you do not want to accept that, you cannot be welcome in France," the right-wing president said.
"The French national community cannot accept a change in its lifestyle, equality between men and women... freedom for little girls to go to school," he said.

Britain's Cameron last week pronounced his country's long-standing policy of multiculturalism a failure, calling for better integration of young Muslims to combat home-grown extremism.
He urged a "more active, muscular liberalism" where equal rights, the rule of law, freedom of speech and democracy are actively promoted to create a stronger national identity.
The prime minister, who took power in May 2010, argued that "under the doctrine of state multiculturalism, we have encouraged different cultures to live separate lives, apart from each other and the mainstream".
He said this had resulted in a lack of national identity in Britain which had made some young Muslims turn to extremist ideology.
Multiculturalism has failed, says French president - Yahoo! News

So, what can Europe do now if their politicians are not happy with their countries now? They can't expect to deport anyone who is different from a traditional French or Briton. They might as well deal with the problem since it is their fault. They wanted more workers, more votes and to appear more open minded, possibly after centuries of not being so. And now they're not happy.
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Old 02-11-2011, 06:00 PM   #44
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Old 02-11-2011, 06:03 PM   #45
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cameron, while still a prat, isn't wholly wrong in his comments. the larger issue is that britain hasn't had a national identity since austin powers....and the last time they had an identity to be proud of is when they were claiming colonies throughout the world.
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