MERGED--> all Gun Control discussion

[martha]

Hypotheticals

 

[bigjohn2441]

Please explain what you mean by "neutralize." If by neutralize you mean explain (and show) to the robber that you have a gun, are highly trained in its use and that they'd better comply while you call the cops and/or cuff them, then yes, by all means, use it to "neutralize" the intruder.

If by neutralize you mean shoot first, ask questions later, then no.

neutralize was a term used during my training for my job that means fire center mass until your threat goes away. neutralize your threat.

if someone is breaking into my house, how do i know it's a robber? how do i know what their intentions are? how do i know if they are armed? how do i know if they discover i am there they wont simply run away, but attack me? how do i know if i announce my presence and "show" them my gun, they dont pull one on me and open fire? im not going to risk my life by assuming they arent armed or are just there to steal stuff. Like i said if it's me vs them its gonna be me.

As i said before i live alone so anybody that is breaking into my apartment late at night is up to no good, not a family member that lost a key or something.

but if i could clearly see and be absolutely sure that they werent a deadly threat and not armed, i probably wouldnt shoot first. but if it's dark and i am still half asleep, im coming out blasting.

 

[Diemen]

but if i could clearly see and be absolutely sure that they werent a deadly threat, i probably not shoot first. but if it's dark and i am still half asleep, im coming out blasting.

So you're saying that if you couldn't get a totally clear view, then without any warning whatsoever you would shoot to kill an intruder? You'd be ok if you come out blasting and end up killing some homeless kid trying to steal food from your fridge, just because you're sleepy and don't have a totally clear view?

Wow.

To the rest:

if someone is breaking into my house, how do i know it's a robber? how do i know what their intentions are? how do i know if they are armed? how do i know if they discover i am there they wont simply run away, but attack me? how do i know if i announce my presence and "show" them my gun, they dont pull one on me and open fire? im not going to risk my life by assuming they arent armed or are just there to steal stuff. Like i said if it's me vs them its gonna be me.

As to your hypotheticals, you don't know. However, given that you're dealing with taking someone's life when you haven't yet ascertained their motives/level of threat, I'm just a bit disturbed that you think the best move is to shoot to kill when unsure. Personally I'd rather not be responsible for killing some poor dumb kid who had his eye on my tv and came armed with nothing but a rock to break the window. I'd rather give the guy the option to follow orders. You've already got the upper hand as you've got your weapon drawn and trained on the intruder.

 

[bigjohn2441]

So you're saying that if you couldn't get a totally clear view, then without any warning whatsoever you would shoot to kill an intruder? You'd be ok if you come out blasting and end up killing some homeless kid trying to steal food from your fridge, just because you're sleepy and don't have a totally clear view?

Wow.

To the rest:



As to your hypotheticals, you don't know. However, given that you're dealing with taking someone's life when you haven't yet ascertained their motives/level of threat, I'm just a bit disturbed that you think the best move is to shoot to kill when unsure. Personally I'd rather not be responsible for killing some poor dumb kid who had his eye on my tv and came armed with nothing but a rock to break the window. I'd rather give the guy the option to follow orders. You've already got the upper hand as you've got your weapon drawn and trained on the intruder.

as i said my part of the island is kind of isolated from the rest. so i doubt there would be any people just passing by that decide to rob my place. also, like i also said, there are bars on the windows and my front door would be pretty hard to get through, as well as the dogs raising all hell, so anyone that can get into my apartment would probably be pretty determined.
and lots of the "kids" here in the VI pack illegal guns.

 

[HyperU2]

Hypotheticals

Hopefully they stay that way.

 

[bigjohn2441]

Hypotheticals

helps the work day go by

 

[Diemen]

as i said my part of the island is kind of isolated from the rest. so i doubt there would be any people just passing by that decide to rob my place. also, like i also said, there are bars on the windows and my front door would be pretty hard to get through, as well as the dogs raising all hell, so anyone that can get into my apartment would probably be pretty determined.
and lots of the "kids" here in the VI pack illegal guns.

So even if someone was determined to break in, they could just be determined to steal some of your stuff. That's worth shooting killing someone who possibly has no intention of physically harming anyone?

 

[anitram]

but if it's dark and i am still half asleep, im coming out blasting.

Lawsuit waiting to happen.

 

[BVS]

Lawsuit waiting to happen.

Not in some states. I know in Texas it's considered self defense once they are in your home, car or work place. So you can literally invite the person over that you want to murder, shoot them and then claim self defense.

That's why I don't buy the "254 self defense killings" number.

 

[anitram]

Not in some states. I know in Texas it's considered self defense once they are in your home, car or work place. So you can literally invite the person over that you want to murder, shoot them and then claim self defense.

That's why I don't buy the "254 self defense killings" number.

It's self-defence everywhere.

But civilly speaking, there is usually a "reasonable force" aspect that won't land you in jail but could very well bankrupt you. I'm not familiar with TX law, though, but I'd be really surprised if you can use physical force with absolute impunity.

And claiming self-defence doesn't necessarily mean that you'd get off either (criminally speaking).

 

[BVS]

It's self-defence everywhere.

But civilly speaking, there is usually a "reasonable force" aspect that won't land you in jail but could very well bankrupt you. I'm not familiar with TX law, though, but I'd be really surprised if you can use physical force with absolute impunity.

And claiming self-defence doesn't necessarily mean that you'd get off either (criminally speaking).

I guess I should have reworded that, Perry signed a law in 2007 that basically made the burden of proof on the person who was shot, so if they are dead, then you're almost scott free. It's still being fought right now, because it makes it far too easy to get away with murder.

Civilly I'm not sure how it works...

 

[HyperU2]

Not in some states. I know in Texas it's considered self defense once they are in your home, car or work place. So you can literally invite the person over that you want to murder, shoot them and then claim self defense.

That's why I don't buy the "254 self defense killings" number.

I guess you'd have to look at how many of those killed were known by the killer. I think far more people get off with the "I was cleaning my gun and it just went off and killed my wife" defense.

 

[martha]

I think far more people get off with the "I was cleaning my gun and it just went off and killed my wife" defense.

I think we agree.

 

[BVS]

I guess you'd have to look at how many of those killed were known by the killer.

That doesn't really mean all that much when you look at the cases. There have been plenty of boyfriend/girlfriend/friends not living under the same roof type of relationships that have ended in gunshots. That's one of the major cases under scrutiny with this new law right now.

 

[HyperU2]

That doesn't really mean all that much when you look at the cases. There have been plenty of boyfriend/girlfriend/friends not living under the same roof type of relationships that have ended in gunshots. That's one of the major cases under scrutiny with this new law right now.

Well the number of justified homicides really haven't gone up with the passing of the law. I wasn't solely referring to people who live together though, just any prior relationship.

 

[BVS]

Well the number of justified homicides really haven't gone up with the passing of the law. I wasn't solely referring to people who live together though, just any prior relationship.

It has here. You missed my point. The reason for bringing up if they lived together is part of the law's equation. A lover's quarrel living under the same roof is usually murder until proven otherwise. A lover's quarrel under the sole survivor's roof is now almost automatically considered self defense, male or female.

 

[HyperU2]

Yeah I know what you meant, it still relates to whether the two parties knew each other before the shooting or not. Hopefully if there was prior contact the cases are reviewed more heavily. Just because the law says you can protect yourself doesn't mean they won't investigate.

 

[bigjohn2441]

So even if someone was determined to break in, they could just be determined to steal some of your stuff. That's worth shooting killing someone who possibly has no intention of physically harming anyone?

probably no intention, how do i know? how do i know they dont have a gun and are going to panic and shoot at me once they see me? is it worth taking that risk once they actually break in and enter my place? as i said, if i could see they were a kid and/or were unarmed, i probably wouldnt shoot first. but if it's dark or whatever im not going to risk it. like i said, the kid would have to be pretty hardcore to break into my place. id probably fire once and pause for a second or 2 to see if that stops them, makes them run away, whatever. and if it doesnt id keep shooting till they go down.

and like i said, here in the VI its a little different. if someone is "that determined" to break in, they probably do have a gun.

just because i shoot them doesnt mean they will die. it's not like those western movies where someone gets shot and they immediatly fall down dead. you have something like a 90% chance of surviving a gunshot wound. unless i hit your heart, brain, or major artery, with treatment in a reasonable amount of time, you have a pretty decent chance of living. i'd never aim for the head, especially in the dark.

also depends of the type of gun and round you use. one shot to center mass with most pistols might knock them on their ass and incapacitate them, but not necessarily kill them. also depends on the persons size and all that.

 

[MadForIt]

How the hell do you know where your aiming at if its dark?

For all you know, you could shoot a guy in the balls and kill him instantly

 

[bigjohn2441]

How the hell do you know where your aiming at if its dark?

For all you know, you could shoot a guy in the balls and kill him instantly

well THAT would incapacitate him

you see the person's shape, you aim for center mass. where im at, the moon gives off lots of light, so it's not total darkness, plus i can see pretty well in the dark once my eyes get adjusted. plus my gun has night sights.

believe me, i've had training with shooting in the dark

 

[Bonoa]

a strange thing happened to me last right. Around 2 am a loud noise woke me up, which has almost never happened before. I couldnt tell what it really was, but it sounded like it was right outside on my porch. I snapped right awake and just listened. about 5-10 seconds later i heard it again around the other side of my porch, by my front door. It couldnt tell what the hell it was but it sounded like something snapping or something hitting something. After the 1st one my landlord's dogs started barking like crazy. I grabbed my duty pistol right off the dresser next to my bed and started peeking through the window shades to see if there was someone out there. there wasnt. my porch is L shaped with a little waist-high gate at the entrance, which was still closed and most of the porch is about 5-8 feet off the ground. the dogs stopped barking after about 20 seconds after the 2nd noise. i still cant figure out what the noise was, cause it was too loud and too odd for 2 in the morning to be normal nighttime sounds.

so for all the people who think we shouldnt have guns for personal protection, i ask you this:

what if there was someone out there trying to brake in? I know what i would do, as soon as they broke through the door, i'd have "neutralized" them. since i have the gun, what would you all have me do? not use it? obviously someone trying to break into my apartment at 2am isnt just stopping in to say hello. and what if i didnt have the gun? what should i do then? call the police? i would be lucky if they showed up in an hour, if at all. i live on the west side of the island which is pretty desolate and isolated. since i live alone, what would you have me do in that situation, with or without the gun?

That's certainly scary! I can imagine why you have a gun or when you are a supporter of gun policy, but what if the burglar would have a gun too and is faster than you?
I would certainly not try to break in someone's home who lives in an isolated place without bringing one.

 

[bigjohn2441]

That's certainly scary! I can imagine why you have a gun or when you are a supporter of gun policy, but what if the burglar would have a gun too and is faster than you?
I would certainly not try to break in someone's home who lives in an isolated place without bringing one.

i have my gun cause my occupation requires it (although i have other ones as well, just not with me )

id like to think my extensive training would give me the upper hand against some punk burglar. not to mention i'd be behind cover and aimed right at the door waiting for him to break in, since he'd have to go through 2 doors to get to me and i doubt he could get through the front door quickly enough without me jumping out of bed and getting ready.

 

[Bonoa]

i have my gun cause my occupation requires it (although i have other ones as well, just not with me )

id like to think my extensive training would give me the upper hand against some punk burglar. not to mention i'd be behind cover and aimed right at the door waiting for him to break in, since he'd have to go through 2 doors to get to me and i doubt he could get through the front door quickly enough without me jumping out of bed and getting ready.

Then you're lucky, but what if you were not trained? That would be scary!

 

[Diemen]

probably no intention, how do i know?

This is exactly my point - you don't know, so your first instinct is to shoot with absolutely no warning whatsoever??

like i said, the kid would have to be pretty hardcore to break into my place.

And like you also said, you have bars on the windows and are setup in such a way that you'd probably hear noise well before someone actually made it into the house. Why not call the cops and say you've got someone attempting to break and enter if you are awakened before they actually enter the house? And then announce in a loud voice before anyone is even in the house that you have a gun, are trained in its use and will not hesitate to use it if necessary?

just because i shoot them doesnt mean they will die.

Except you've been trained to shoot center mass until the threat is neutralized, and you just earlier said that if one shot didn't drop them or cause them to run off you'd probably keep shooting. How does your likelihood of survival change if you get shot multiple times at center mass?

unless i hit your heart, brain, or major artery, with treatment in a reasonable amount of time, you have a pretty decent chance of living. i'd never aim for the head, especially in the dark.

also depends of the type of gun and round you use. one shot to center mass with most pistols might knock them on their ass and incapacitate them, but not necessarily kill them. also depends on the persons size and all that.

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what center mass means - I take that to mean you are aiming for their chest/abdomen area as it's the biggest target and their "center." There seem to be a lot of vital organs in that general vicinity, and it seems like the chances of hitting one are pretty high, especially if you're shooting more than once.

Also "with treatment in a reasonable amount of time" sounds like an odd thing for you to say considering you wrote off the police responding in time since they're so far away from you.

 

[Diemen]

id like to think my extensive training would give me the upper hand against some punk burglar. not to mention i'd be behind cover and aimed right at the door waiting for him to break in, since he'd have to go through 2 doors to get to me and i doubt he could get through the front door quickly enough without me jumping out of bed and getting ready.

Again this only strengthens my case. Since the odds would be stacked highly in your favor - behind cover, aiming at his only point of entry - why not give the guy the option by firmly stating that you have a gun, are trained in its use and will not hesitate to use it if necessary? I'd say that 9 times out of 10 if a burglar - who isn't expecting to run into anybody who is awake, much less awake and prepared for his entry with weapon drawn - finds out before he even makes it through the door that there's someone waiting for him with gun drawn, he's going to bolt.

Why even give him the opportunity to make it through your door unsuspecting?

 

[bigjohn2441]

This is exactly my point - you don't know, so your first instinct is to shoot with absolutely no warning whatsoever??

if my life is possibly in danger, yes. id rather shoot someone thats trying to break into my place than not shoot them and have something happen, like they shoot me

And like you also said, you have bars on the windows and are setup in such a way that you'd probably hear noise well before someone actually made it into the house. Why not call the cops and say you've got someone attempting to break and enter if you are awakened before they actually enter the house? And then announce in a loud voice before anyone is even in the house that you have a gun, are trained in its use and will not hesitate to use it if necessary?

like i said, where i am at id be lucky if they showed up at all, let alone in a reasonable amount of time. and a robber here probably will have a gun and there might be more than one. lots of people break into places to steal guns as well. announcing the fact that i have a gun might not be a good idea. they might leave and then wait until im not around to break in and steal the gun (which would not be good for my career ) at worst, i announce all that and they panic or whatever and start shooting into my apartment. so announcing your presence isnt generally a good idea.

Except you've been trained to shoot center mass until the threat is neutralized, and you just earlier said that if one shot didn't drop them or cause them to run off you'd probably keep shooting. How does your likelihood of survival change if you get shot multiple times at center mass?

obviously a lot. if i shoot them once, pause, and they still want to make a fight of it, then i think im justified in continuing to shoot

Maybe I'm misinterpreting what center mass means - I take that to mean you are aiming for their chest/abdomen area as it's the biggest target and their "center." There seem to be a lot of vital organs in that general vicinity, and it seems like the chances of hitting one are pretty high, especially if you're shooting more than once.

it still doesnt guarantee death. look up statistics on gunshot wounds. it's not the crap you see in movies. and it depends on the bullet

Also "with treatment in a reasonable amount of time" sounds like an odd thing for you to say considering you wrote off the police responding in time since they're so far away from you.

i was talking in general, not my situation. unless they knew how to, or were able to treat themselves, and the wound was serious enough, then yeah theyd probably be in trouble

 

[MadForIt]

Just get a tazer gun

 

[Bluer White]

I recognize there may be legal differences state by state...

but to me the robber assumes the risk of his would-be victim being armed.

 

[bigjohn2441]

Just get a tazer gun

actually i might be getting one issued sometime in the near future

not really a good nighttime defense weapon. i wouldnt want to use one against an armed opponent.

maybe i could just beat the shit out of them with my extendable baton, right?

 

[MadForIt]

With all these guns you get issued with, where do you work?
Wallmart?