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Old 04-08-2009, 07:26 PM   #61
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Originally Posted by HyperU2 View Post
If more legally owned guns were the ones being used in crimes even I might be in support of stricter laws. They aren't though, the numbers don't support that gun laws are failing.
How many more would you need?

Go back to your response to the issue of assault rifles, all legally owned weapons...
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:07 PM   #62
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Originally Posted by BonoVoxSupastar View Post
Have you not learned anything from FYM? An AK-47 is just a tool. Just like a shovel.

"A gun is a tool, Marian; no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that."

~Shane by Jack Schaefer


I believe that is a true statement.
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:50 PM   #63
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I believe that is a true statement.
I know, you are who I was referring to...

Tell me what kind of work does a law abiding citizen do with an AK-47?


Did Shane ever tell you that?
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Old 04-08-2009, 08:52 PM   #64
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I know, you are who I was referring to...

Tell me what kind of work does a law abiding citizen do with an AK-47?


Did Shane ever tell you that?
i think you need to research your guns there.

a true ak-47 is fully automatic. ak-47 copies availible to civilians are semi-automatic, same as some hunting rifles. huuuuge difference.

while true ak-47s are legally obtainable in some areas, you have to go through A LOT of hoops to get them, that is IF you can even find one. no shmuck off the street can just walk into a store and buy one.

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Old 04-08-2009, 08:55 PM   #65
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I know, and its really hard to gun down people with a semi automatic.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:03 PM   #66
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Well there are plenty of good people who shoot and kill someone. I don't neccessarily think these people who've gone slightly psychotic and inherently bad, even Cho i don't think is a "Bad" person but had a mental illness. So a gun in someone who is unstable which sadly NO ONE knows about is a bad thing.

Yes i beleive if you brandish a weapon or carry it for "protection" you don't respect human life. What gives you the right to shoot at someone if they try to rob you? What gives you the right to stand on your lawn and shout, if you come on ma property i will shoot you. Grow up, you're not some manly ma just because all your guns make you feel strong and powerful. Your amendment was written in a completely different time and things can be changed.

I live in a country where you cannot own a gun unless you are in law enforcement or a farmer who is HEAVILY regulated. Are there guns out there? Of course but a tiny few and most of them are pointed at other people who have guns and not the general population. I don't have to worry about being picked off when i go to the mall, or that some person has a bad day and decides to go postal. I just honestly think, if you don't NEED a gun (working on a farm is about the only thing, as well as the police) then you don't get a gun. You want to go shoot tin cans or animals, go to a shooting range or a reserve and hire a gun.

No argument for personal ownership of a gun works.
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:42 PM   #67
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Yes i beleive if you brandish a weapon or carry it for "protection" you don't respect human life. What gives you the right to shoot at someone if they try to rob you? What gives you the right to stand on your lawn and shout, if you come on ma property i will shoot you. Grow up, you're not some manly ma just because all your guns make you feel strong and powerful. Your amendment was written in a completely different time and things can be changed.
right, if someone trys to kill you, you should just let them do it.


forget the personal protection arguement and lemme throw a real curveball, just for the sake of arguement. our guns represent our freedom. America has always been refered to as "land of the free, home of the brave." our 2nd amendment was created to ensure that the people had means to protect that life, liberty, and prosperity from oppression and tyranny. when the british tried to take over the colonies, we banded together and kicked ass. now, lets bring it up to modern times. FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, consider these 2 scenarios, although unlikely, MAYBE could be possible (especially the way things are going) in the not too distant future:

1.) WWIII comes. it's the US and it's allies vs. whoever. We send our forces overseas just like the in the last 2. this time we fail, due to the weakened economy, opponents superior military strength, whatever. The war comes to American soil for the first time in history. Enemy invasion begins. Our weakened military forces and police, national guard, etc are outnumbered by the enemy's forces. Our cities begin to be attacked by the invading forces. Our citizens band together and form the militia army just like old times as our last stand. GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH! oops, a few years ago we had to turn in all our guns. shit, what do we do now?

2.) A few years down the road our economy keeps getting worse and worse. The banks keep getting bailed out, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Right now some argue that our rights are being slowly chiseled away. This continues and gets worse and worse. Taxes become unbearable. The middle class gets smaller and smaller. Unemployment and crime rises and rises. Our politicians do nothing. The value of the dollar collapses. We are have been in the 2nd great depression for a while now. We as citizens as a whole have had enough, finally wake up from our apathetic slumber, and think it's time to change the way the government works, except the government has gotten too big and overpowering to do anything about it. Our elections have become more of a sham than they already are, politicians have become totally corrupt, and our civil liberties have been virtually totally erased and we live in a police state, similar to V for Vandetta. We as citizens cant take anymore, its time for the 2nd american revolution, this time against our own government. oops, we let them take our guns away a few years back. shit, what do we do now?

although i these scenarios are unlikely (i hope), i think the guns=freedom arguement is valid.

back in colonial times up until i guess the middle of the 20th century we didnt seem to have violent gun crimes we do today, even though guns were always readily availible, maybe even moreso than today. today we have the war on drugs, the war on terror, a bad economy, substantial poverty rates, all these recent things that have contributed to gun violence. maybe we need to look at these social problems as a cause of gun violence, rather than just guns themselves.

if nothing else i hope you enjoyed my scenarios, and remember, just for the sake of argument
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Old 04-08-2009, 09:47 PM   #68
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From The San Francisco Examiner:


Gun control restricts those least likely to commit violent crimes

By Don Kates
Special to the Examiner 4/6/09
The March 21 murder of four Oakland police officers by Lovelle Mixon, a convicted felon wanted for a recent parole violation, epitomizes the futility of “gun control,” or the banning and restricting of gun ownership for law-abiding adults. Using the officers’ tragic deaths to further an unrelated agenda — stripping away the Second Amendment rights of honorable citizens — is both harmful and distracting.

Mixon was not an anomaly. Felons commit over 90 percent of murders, with the remainder carried out primarily by juveniles and the mentally unbalanced. The United States already has laws forbidding all three groups from owning guns, which, by definition, are ineffective against the lawless. “Gun control,” therefore, only “controls” those who have done nothing to merit such regulations.

Arguments for gun control rest on deceptive claims such as National Coalition to Ban Handguns’ allegation that “most murders are committed by previously law-abiding citizens.” Americans are deluged by literally dozens of supposedly scholarly articles asserting such falsehoods — but with no supporting references. For there are none.

Notably, only 15 percent of all Americans have criminal records, yet more than 90 percent of murder suspects have a history of crime. Their criminal careers average six or more years’ length, including four major adult felonies, in addition to their often extensive juvenile records.

A New York Times study of the 1,662 murders in that city between 2003 and 2005 found that “more than 90 percent of the killers had criminal records.” Baltimore police records show similar statistics for its murder suspects in 2006. In Milwaukee, police reported that most murder suspects in 2007 had criminal records, while “a quarter of them [killed while] on probation or parole.” The great majority of Illinois murderers from the years 1991-2000 had prior felony records. Eighty percent of Atlanta murder arrestees had previously been arrested at least once for a drug offense; 70 percent had three or more prior drug arrests — in addition to their arrests for other crimes.

In sum, guns or no guns, neither most murderers nor many murderers — nor virtually any murderers — are ordinary, law-abiding, responsible adults. This conclusion is so invariably reached by homicide studies that the 1998 study by David Kennedy and Anthony Braga describes the fact that murderers are almost invariably veteran criminals as a standard “criminological axiom.”

Naïve, well-meaning people often respond to such facts with, “Still, wouldn’t this be a better world without guns?” After many years of studying guns as a highly effective method of self-defense, I reply, no, the world would be immeasurably worse off without the only weaponry that gives the weak a real chance against predators. After all, there was a time, hundreds of years ago, when there were no guns. Without guns for self-defense, survival was measured by the strength of men’s arms, as women, children and the elderly huddled in terror, escaping only by abject submission to their predators. Yes, Mixon used a gun to kill four Oakland police officers. But had he not been shot and killed by another member of the SWAT team, the death toll would have been undoubtedly higher. In the hands of sworn officers and moral citizens, guns are a powerful, swift means of protection. When the government passes laws that only peaceable people obey, they are simply leaving the same people at the mercy of violent predators.

Don B. Kates is a research fellow at the Independent Institute in Oakland and a criminologist and former professor of criminal and constitutional law.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:20 PM   #69
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Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
i think you need to research your guns there.

a true ak-47 is fully automatic. ak-47 copies availible to civilians are semi-automatic, same as some hunting rifles. huuuuge difference.

while true ak-47s are legally obtainable in some areas, you have to go through A LOT of hoops to get them, that is IF you can even find one. no shmuck off the street can just walk into a store and buy one.

YouTube - The Truth about "Assault Weapons"
I know all of this, what research do I exactly need to do? I never mentioned hunting rifles...
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:26 PM   #70
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Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
right, if someone trys to kill you, you should just let them do it.


forget the personal protection arguement and lemme throw a real curveball, just for the sake of arguement. our guns represent our freedom. America has always been refered to as "land of the free, home of the brave." our 2nd amendment was created to ensure that the people had means to protect that life, liberty, and prosperity from oppression and tyranny. when the british tried to take over the colonies, we banded together and kicked ass. now, lets bring it up to modern times. FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, consider these 2 scenarios, although unlikely, MAYBE could be possible (especially the way things are going) in the not too distant future:

1.) WWIII comes. it's the US and it's allies vs. whoever. We send our forces overseas just like the in the last 2. this time we fail, due to the weakened economy, opponents superior military strength, whatever. The war comes to American soil for the first time in history. Enemy invasion begins. Our weakened military forces and police, national guard, etc are outnumbered by the enemy's forces. Our cities begin to be attacked by the invading forces. Our citizens band together and form the militia army just like old times as our last stand. GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH! oops, a few years ago we had to turn in all our guns. shit, what do we do now?

2.) A few years down the road our economy keeps getting worse and worse. The banks keep getting bailed out, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Right now some argue that our rights are being slowly chiseled away. This continues and gets worse and worse. Taxes become unbearable. The middle class gets smaller and smaller. Unemployment and crime rises and rises. Our politicians do nothing. The value of the dollar collapses. We are have been in the 2nd great depression for a while now. We as citizens as a whole have had enough, finally wake up from our apathetic slumber, and think it's time to change the way the government works, except the government has gotten too big and overpowering to do anything about it. Our elections have become more of a sham than they already are, politicians have become totally corrupt, and our civil liberties have been virtually totally erased and we live in a police state, similar to V for Vandetta. We as citizens cant take anymore, its time for the 2nd american revolution, this time against our own government. oops, we let them take our guns away a few years back. shit, what do we do now?

although i these scenarios are unlikely (i hope), i think the guns=freedom arguement is valid.

back in colonial times up until i guess the middle of the 20th century we didnt seem to have violent gun crimes we do today, even though guns were always readily availible, maybe even moreso than today. today we have the war on drugs, the war on terror, a bad economy, substantial poverty rates, all these recent things that have contributed to gun violence. maybe we need to look at these social problems as a cause of gun violence, rather than just guns themselves.

if nothing else i hope you enjoyed my scenarios, and remember, just for the sake of argument
Interesting post. In the scenario you paint, which of course is purely hypothetical (ha ha ha), American citizens are in a far better position to defend themselves against incipient fascism than Europeans, and yet, Europe has a history of actual fascism.

I would not be at all surprised if a false flag terrorist attack is used to justify further depradations on the rights of the individual in the next few years.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:26 PM   #71
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Don B. Kates is a research fellow at the Independent Institute in Oakland and a criminologist and former professor of criminal and constitutional law.
And a huge advocate of guns, it's no suprise he would sum up his findings this way.
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Old 04-08-2009, 10:30 PM   #72
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Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
right, if someone trys to kill you, you should just let them do it.


forget the personal protection arguement and lemme throw a real curveball, just for the sake of arguement. our guns represent our freedom. America has always been refered to as "land of the free, home of the brave." our 2nd amendment was created to ensure that the people had means to protect that life, liberty, and prosperity from oppression and tyranny. when the british tried to take over the colonies, we banded together and kicked ass. now, lets bring it up to modern times. FOR THE SAKE OF ARGUMENT, consider these 2 scenarios, although unlikely, MAYBE could be possible (especially the way things are going) in the not too distant future:

1.) WWIII comes. it's the US and it's allies vs. whoever. We send our forces overseas just like the in the last 2. this time we fail, due to the weakened economy, opponents superior military strength, whatever. The war comes to American soil for the first time in history. Enemy invasion begins. Our weakened military forces and police, national guard, etc are outnumbered by the enemy's forces. Our cities begin to be attacked by the invading forces. Our citizens band together and form the militia army just like old times as our last stand. GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH! oops, a few years ago we had to turn in all our guns. shit, what do we do now?

2.) A few years down the road our economy keeps getting worse and worse. The banks keep getting bailed out, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Right now some argue that our rights are being slowly chiseled away. This continues and gets worse and worse. Taxes become unbearable. The middle class gets smaller and smaller. Unemployment and crime rises and rises. Our politicians do nothing. The value of the dollar collapses. We are have been in the 2nd great depression for a while now. We as citizens as a whole have had enough, finally wake up from our apathetic slumber, and think it's time to change the way the government works, except the government has gotten too big and overpowering to do anything about it. Our elections have become more of a sham than they already are, politicians have become totally corrupt, and our civil liberties have been virtually totally erased and we live in a police state, similar to V for Vandetta. We as citizens cant take anymore, its time for the 2nd american revolution, this time against our own government. oops, we let them take our guns away a few years back. shit, what do we do now?

although i these scenarios are unlikely (i hope), i think the guns=freedom arguement is valid.

back in colonial times up until i guess the middle of the 20th century we didnt seem to have violent gun crimes we do today, even though guns were always readily availible, maybe even moreso than today. today we have the war on drugs, the war on terror, a bad economy, substantial poverty rates, all these recent things that have contributed to gun violence. maybe we need to look at these social problems as a cause of gun violence, rather than just guns themselves.

if nothing else i hope you enjoyed my scenarios, and remember, just for the sake of argument
I thought you said you weren't an ultra right gun nut? All of these scenarios are those used by militia types.

What these scenarios do not ever address is that the government and the law abiding citizens no long carry the same exact technology, as they did in colonial times. So if you really wanted to follow this argument push for tank, grenade, and f-16 ownership.

Weak weak weak argument. What are you going to do up against their technology? Shoot a tank with your .38?
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Old 04-08-2009, 11:53 PM   #73
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I thought you said you weren't an ultra right gun nut? All of these scenarios are those used by militia types.

What these scenarios do not ever address is that the government and the law abiding citizens no long carry the same exact technology, as they did in colonial times. So if you really wanted to follow this argument push for tank, grenade, and f-16 ownership.

Weak weak weak argument. What are you going to do up against their technology? Shoot a tank with your .38?
"You cannot invade the mainland United States.
There would be a rifle behind every blade of grass."

- Admiral Isoroku Yamamoto
(Japanese Navy)


It's not so much our Government I fear,(I don't even own guns out of fear, just enjoyment) most troops wouldn't follow orders to disarm US citizens. Although the Branch Davidians did a number on the ATF.



Hand guns kill the most people, why are you so scared of accessories that make guns seem "scarier"? Believing the hype? The assault weapon ban didn't change anything but lets ban them anyway. It's a good start to banning all guns, right?
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Old 04-09-2009, 12:05 AM   #74
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Hand guns kill the most people, why are you so scared of accessories that make guns seem "scarier"? Believing the hype? The assault weapon ban didn't change anything but lets ban them anyway. It's a good start to banning all guns, right?

Don't give me this crap. I grew up around guns, hunting, gun shows, my father was a member of the NRA up until 10 years ago(he finally saw the light, still owns hunting rifles but found the culture to be ignorant), etc...

I have actually fired a fully automatic weapon.

These are not just accessories, not just hype... Maybe I'm the more educated one about guns here since you can't answer the question.
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Old 04-09-2009, 04:21 AM   #75
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Your amendment was written in a completely different time and things can be changed.

I live in a country where you cannot own a gun unless you are in law enforcement or a farmer who is HEAVILY regulated.
Thing is, this particular line of argument is frankly dead in the water in the US at this point--while there are still millions of Americans who support stricter gun controls, many of whom might personally prefer that no one except law enforcement kept guns at all, it's beyond obvious to anyone who lives here that nothing anywhere near that drastic has a snowball's chance of happening in the foreseeable future. So gun control supporters have to think instead in terms of prioritizing measures that could address the most glaring trends in gun-related crime.

A couple posters have referred to the high percentage of gun-related crimes which are committed with illegally acquired guns. While there are no truly sound data available on this--no national agency or organization specifically tracks that particular information, nor do our crime reporting systems make it feasible for them to do so--the FBI and DoJ have estimated, based primarily on a couple large prison-inmate studies done in the late 1990s, that about 40% of gun-related crimes are committed with illegally acquired guns, another 45% with guns acquired through the legal but very poorly regulated 'secondary market' (gun shows, swap meets, flea markets etc.), and only around 8% with guns acquired from actual licensed gun dealers (i.e., the offender purchased it him/herself at a gun store). Some of those 'illegally acquired' guns are outright stolen of course, but even more are acquired through trafficking operations, where 'straw purchasers' buy large quantities of guns at a time or in a short period from licensed dealers, with the express intent of immediately reselling them, often using fake IDs. There's an enormous interstate smuggling trade in guns, on account of the fact that it's much easier to make such 'straw purchases' in some states (and from some dealers) than others, and traffickers know exactly which these are. International smuggling, while certainly a problem, isn't likely a huge one: on average, only about 20% of the guns which ATF runs traces on annually turn out to be foreign-made, and that's including guns which were originally imported fully legally. Mexico, which someone mentioned, is in fact not a major source of smuggled guns (though the reverse is true: they have a serious problem with guns being smuggled in from the US to their drug cartels).

So, one issue that should definitely be a priority for gun control advocates is tightening the existing loopholes which facilitate all this illegal and under-regulated gun acquisition. ATF needs greater authority to revoke the licenses of dealers to whom guns used in crimes are traced in great numbers (e.g. in 1998, 57% of all traced guns came from 1% of dealers, and 100% from under 15% of them), since that's a rather glaring symptom of turning a blind eye to 'straw purchasers' for profit's sake; currently they're required to prove 'malicious intent' on the dealer's part before they can do this, an absurdly high bar. They're also presently limited to one unannounced inspection per dealer per year, can't compel dealers to keep inventory secured nor to do regular physical inventories, and are almost never permitted to temporarily suspend licenses or impose fines. (It should be noted that the NRA usually fights the ATF at every turn on such matters--the NRA doesn't just serve the interests of 'law-abiding gun owners,' they also serve the interests of gun dealers and manufacturers.) In addition, 'secondary market' purchases also need to be much more tightly regulated; subjected to background checks for example, something only a handful of states have taken much action on thus far. While such measures probably won't do much to prevent the proverbial case of the guy with no criminal record or prior psychiatric history who snaps after his wife leaves him and his boss cans him and decides to go out in a bloody blaze of glory, there's every reason to think they'd reduce gun crime considerably; at which point we might be politically better-placed to evaluate the need for further, more across-the-board restrictions on, say, types and/or quantities of guns available to the 'average law-abiding gun owner,' mandatory training, etc.
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