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Old 05-07-2009, 09:58 AM   #526
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If you can provide solid evidence that the benefits outweigh the costs, I have no problem changing my position. I'll even accept "scare-offs." But you're willingness to bet isn't sufficient. We've discussed the number of lives lost to guns, what about the number of lives saved. As for banning knives, I think we'd all have a great deal of difficulty cutting our tomatoes if they were banned. Knives have other uses besides killing things.
As are my guns, but my point is statistics about scare offs aren't kept. Sometimes there isn't even police involvement.
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Old 05-07-2009, 06:08 PM   #527
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As are my guns, but my point is statistics about scare offs aren't kept. Sometimes there isn't even police involvement.
So let's ignore the stats we do have and legislate based on your hunches? Is that what you're suggesting?

and I knew you'd say that about your guns. What else do you use them for besides entertainment and home defense? Remind me again what the primary purpose of guns is? (Hint: It's the same as the primary purpose of bow and arrows--I'm not saying it's a bad thing necessarily--I'm just saying let's not pretend a gun is the same as a car or knife) And what's the primary purpose of knives?
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Old 05-07-2009, 07:44 PM   #528
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No, I'd urge more of a study on the matter instead of opinions of either side. The only stats I've found about guns being used for that sort of thing estimates it happens 2 million times a year. Which even I think is unreasonably high. I know of two cases in my town of 20,000 last year though.

Hunting? Most gun owners simply use them to get the food that they cut with their knives.
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Old 05-07-2009, 07:55 PM   #529
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One of those things that never happens happened again.

College Student Shoots, Kills Home Invader - News Story - WSB Atlanta

College Student Shoots, Kills Home Invader

Posted: 4:53 pm EDT May 4, 2009Updated: 6:41 pm EDT May 4, 2009
COLLEGE PARK, Ga. -- A group of college students said they are lucky to be alive and they’re thanking the quick-thinking of one of their own. Police said a fellow student shot and killed one of two masked me who burst into an apartment.

Channel 2 Action News reporter Tom Jones met with one of the students to talk about the incident.

“Apparently, his intent was to rape and murder us all,” said student Charles Bailey.

TOM JONES: College Student Shoots, Kills Home Invader

Bailey said he thought it was the end of his life and the lives of the 10 people inside his apartment for a birthday party after two masked men with guns burst in through a patio door.

“They just came in and separated the men from the women and said, ‘Give me your wallets and cell phones,’” said George Williams of the College Park Police Department.

Bailey said the gunmen started counting bullets. “The other guy asked how many (bullets) he had. He said he had enough,” said Bailey.

That’s when one student grabbed a gun out of a backpack and shot at the invader who was watching the men. The gunman ran out of the apartment.

The student then ran to the room where the second gunman, identified by police as 23-year-old Calvin Lavant, was holding the women.

“Apparently the guy was getting ready to rape his girlfriend. So he told the girls to get down and he started shooting. The guy jumped out of the window,” said Bailey.

A neighbor heard the shots and heard someone running nearby.

“And I heard someone say, ‘Someone help me. Call the police. Somebody call the police,’” said a neighbor.

The neighbor said she believes it was Lavant, who was found dead near his apartment, only one building away.

Bailey said he is just thankful one student risked his life to keep others alive.

“I think all of us are really cognizant of the fact that we could have all been killed,” said Bailey.

One female student was shot several times during the crossfire. She is expected to make a full recovery.

Police said they are close to making the arrest of the second suspect.


I took the time to go to the link and watch the video.

it seems this story as simple as presented

Here is a link to some more information.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publics...omments=legacy
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Old 05-07-2009, 08:06 PM   #530
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I took the time to go to the link and watch the video.

it seems this story as simple as presented

Here is a link to some more information.

Third suspect arrested in man's slaying at Pasco home - St. Petersburg Times
The one I posted didn't happen in Oct.
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Old 05-07-2009, 08:20 PM   #531
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see, I told you it did not add up


my mistake aside (curse you google and similar names and crimes)


after I watched the video on your link, I just thought it seemed a bit odd
that these guys would count the bullets, then announce, ok line up for execution

also, the victim's reaction when he was told the guy lived a few doors down seemed a bit off

I am wondering if there is a past relationship of some sort.
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Old 05-07-2009, 09:07 PM   #532
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FBI data:

Murders, by Circumstance and Weapon Type, 2007

Justifiable Homicides by Private Citizens, by Weapon Type, 2003-2007
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Old 05-07-2009, 09:42 PM   #533
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No, I'd urge more of a study on the matter instead of opinions of either side. The only stats I've found about guns being used for that sort of thing estimates it happens 2 million times a year. Which even I think is unreasonably high. I know of two cases in my town of 20,000 last year though.
What happens 2 million times a year?

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Hunting? Most gun owners simply use them to get the food that they cut with their knives.
Actually, this would be an interesting survey, to find out how many hunters actually use the meat vs how many just hunt for the "sport" of it...
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Old 05-07-2009, 11:06 PM   #534
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What happens 2 million times a year?



Actually, this would be an interesting survey, to find out how many hunters actually use the meat vs how many just hunt for the "sport" of it...

People using a firearm to prevent crime.


I'm sure the majority do. I stopped hunting long ago.
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Old 05-07-2009, 11:16 PM   #535
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No, I'd urge more of a study on the matter instead of opinions of either side. .
I'm cool with that.

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Hunting? Most gun owners simply use them to get the food that they cut with their knives.
Hunting is legitimate, yes. But the point remains that a gun's primary purpose is for killing things, just like a bow and arrow. Ideally, animals only. Granted a sword is "worse" in this sense as it's ONLY purpose is to kill people, but I don't think there have been a whole lot of sword killings of late so I don't think the numbers support any restrictions. (I am being slightly tongue in cheek by the way, in case someone missed the humor).
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Old 05-07-2009, 11:28 PM   #536
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Wow. Did you guys take a look at those numbers? To me there is a very clear case based on these numbers for the severe restriction of handguns, but not placing heavy restrictions on rifles and shotguns (which are used for hunting as has already been pointed out. Handguns on the other hand have no other purpose--beyond target shooting--but killing human beings). 7,361 murders committed in 2007 with guns compared to 1,796 with knives. But if you subtract out the handguns, more murders have been committed with knives than with rifles or handguns.

Furthermore, the number of justifiable homicides involving guns are only 254. Those are definitely NOT the numbers to suggest that the cost of loose gun control laws is worth the benefit in personal/public safety.
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Old 05-07-2009, 11:44 PM   #537
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People using a firearm to prevent crime.
Where did you get that number?

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I'm sure the majority do. I stopped hunting long ago.
Yeah, I wouldn't venture a guess, the hunters I've met are about 50/50, so I don't know.

I have family members that are very much the grow and kill the majority of their food types, and I know many of the shoot to stuff types...
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Old 05-08-2009, 03:00 AM   #538
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.

Furthermore, the number of justifiable homicides involving guns are only 254. Those are definitely NOT the numbers to suggest that the cost of loose gun control laws is worth the benefit in personal/public safety.
254 deaths don't account for shootings not involving death or instances where shots weren't fired. Neither of the cases from my town had any shots fired.

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Where did you get that number?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:44 AM   #539
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254 deaths don't account for shootings not involving death or instances where shots weren't fired. Neither of the cases from my town had any shots fired.[/url]
We're comparing deaths.

If you want to compare non-fatal gun injuries then your 254 would go up, but the 7000+ gun-related deaths would also skyrocket.

Therefore I'm not sure how this strengthens your argument at all.
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Old 05-08-2009, 08:45 AM   #540
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Yeah, I did some further reading... 15 similar studies done that year alone and the numbers range from 100,000 to Kleck's 2 million. It seems like this guy is considered a hack by many in his field...
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