MERGED--> all Gun Control discussion - Page 31 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-04-2009, 04:04 PM   #451
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,685
Local Time: 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
MY VIEWS ON GUNS IN A NUTSHELL:

- not for outright banning

- for much stronger controls, background checks, restrictions on certain guns

- think this "assault weapon" language is bullshit

- think we need to fix social problems that cause gun violence, moreso than the guns themselves. poverty, healthcare, education, failed war on drugs, economy, jobs, etc. just a better quality of living for EVERYONE, and im not talking about "liberal ideas" or "socialism", just a better society. it's beyond a left-right issue.
I agree that all sides need to work on fixing these problems you list.

And I can appreciate the fact that you recognise some control does need to exist.

Now you say "restriction on certain guns" but the "assault weapon language is bullshit", so what restrictions would you agree with?
__________________

__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 04:13 PM   #452
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I agree that all sides need to work on fixing these problems you list.

And I can appreciate the fact that you recognise some control does need to exist.

Now you say "restriction on certain guns" but the "assault weapon language is bullshit", so what restrictions would you agree with?
i mean restictions on the ease of obtaining certain guns and ammo for them, mostly handguns. NOT totally banning them, just you have to pass a certain set of special requirements to get them. not just be able to waltz into a store and pass a 1 minute phone background check and walk out.

actually, i shouldnt really give a shit if they ban all firearms (even though they wont) becuase due to my occupation, i could probably still get whatever gun i damn well felt like getting.

but that is the selfish way of thinking about it and not looking at the big picture.
__________________

__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 04:49 PM   #453
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 09:15 PM
^ yeah, you know what you guys win, ban the guns!

end of argument!
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 07:41 PM   #454
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
maycocksean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: The Most Important State in the Union
Posts: 4,882
Local Time: 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post

lemme tell you in st thomas they have EXTREME gun control. there are no gun stores at all on the island, and you have to have like 3 permits and background checks to even have one. .

Well, I told you about another island that is a U.S. territory that also has EXTREME gun control, but you haven't responded to that. Or to any of my other arguments.

I'll just assume that's because my arguments are airtight and unassailable and you know it.
__________________
maycocksean is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 09:49 PM   #455
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,294
Local Time: 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post

- think we need to fix social problems that cause gun violence, moreso than the guns themselves. poverty, healthcare, education, failed war on drugs, economy, jobs, etc. just a better quality of living for EVERYONE, and im not talking about "liberal ideas" or "socialism", just a better society. it's beyond a left-right issue.
Yes, ideally.

But until we get there, we need to do something about the massive availability of almost any kind of gun out there so that we don't have 10,000 people dying a year.
__________________
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 03:01 AM   #456
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Carlisle PA
Posts: 818
Local Time: 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
Well, I told you about another island that is a U.S. territory that also has EXTREME gun control, but you haven't responded to that. Or to any of my other arguments.

I'll just assume that's because my arguments are airtight and unassailable and you know it.

I don't think we're talking about other countries but enjoy whatever you're there for. You've got what 65,000 people on that island tops? How many murders per year?
__________________
HyperU2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 07:52 AM   #457
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,685
Local Time: 07:15 PM
Um, actually yes, other countries have been brought up and just recently another island...
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 08:06 AM   #458
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Um, actually yes, other countries have been brought up and just recently another island...
st thomas is part of the US, so i was still talking about gun violence in the US exclusively
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 08:23 AM   #459
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,685
Local Time: 07:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
another island that is a U.S. territory
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperU2 View Post
I don't think we're talking about other countries
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
st thomas is part of the US,


What did I miss?

One person was out of the loop and it wasn't me...
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 09:08 AM   #460
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Carlisle PA
Posts: 818
Local Time: 08:15 PM
Don't post drunk, and get those places some fucking guns.
__________________
HyperU2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 11:59 AM   #461
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperU2 View Post
Don't post drunk, and get those places some fucking guns.


do you have a point of discussion beyond "i like guns"?

or should we consider this matter settled.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 12:03 PM   #462
Blue Crack Supplier
 
elevated_u2_fan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: I'm here 'cus I don't want to go home
Posts: 31,693
Local Time: 08:15 PM
I could have told you that 20 pages ago...
__________________
elevated_u2_fan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 12:45 PM   #463
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 09:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
do you have a point of discussion beyond "i like guns"?

or should we consider this matter settled.
i do
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 12:48 PM   #464
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Carlisle PA
Posts: 818
Local Time: 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
do you have a point of discussion beyond "i like guns"?

or should we consider this matter settled.
Do you have one beyond "I hate guns"? That's all this will ever be. I guess my point was "guns don't cause crime" and you somehow think they do.
__________________
HyperU2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-05-2009, 01:27 PM   #465
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,493
Local Time: 08:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperU2 View Post
Do you have one beyond "I hate guns"?



here you go:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
first, you're cartooning the other side of the discussion. just as you did with the "puppies" quote fabrication and with the "tens of thousands of murders every day" quote fabrication, you've created a straw man necessary for your hyperbolic language to have any sort of credibility. i have not said "BAN GUNS BAN GUNS," nor has anyone else in here. what people have argued for is gun control, and what i have asked for, specifically, is an admission that the right to bear arms is why there are at least 10,000 murders by handguns in the US every year, and that you feel as if your "right" to bear arms is worth this price.

you've said that it is. thank you. i appreciate the admission.

let's look at the second part of your argument:





now, let's look at what the link actually says, and we'll just take California, the most populated state:





so you can already see that handguns are responsible for more than 2/3rds of all homicides in California. 2/3rds! do you think that those 1,605 murders would have happened without a handgun? a proportion would have, absolutely, but this underscores the point of gun control -- it's not that the gun itself murders someone else, it's that guns make it very, very, very easy for people to murder other people. and many murders would not have happened at all had there not been a gun present and easily available.

Americans are no more violent than any other Western country, but the reason why our homicide rate is so astronomical compared to the UK or France is because it is so, so easy to get guns in this country. and the reason why it is so easy to get guns in this country is because people like you think that it's your right to own guns at all costs.

and, Constitutionally, that is likely correct. i agree, and i have agreed -- it does seem to be a part of the Constitution. and i know why. i do know that the British crown was violently removed from the Colonies. i also know that there are gun owners who are responsible, there are guns that do prevent crimes, there are people who need guns to defend themselves from bears.

but the fact remains that guns themselves present a significant and clear threat to public health. the constitution is modified all the time. there is no absolute free speech -- the proverbial "can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater" -- and that the right to "bear arms" begs to be likewise moderated and controlled because we have clear evidence that guns make us less safe, that guns make it easy to kill other people, and that guns themselves often kill children who mishandle them. and this is distinct from, say, a motor vehicle, which kills many more people each year, because of the fact that many Americans are entirely dependent upon motor vehicles, cars themselves are highly regulated, driving itself is highly regulated, roads are highly regulated, everyone who drives is trained and licensed, and the car has a purpose far above and beyond being a weapon.

guns are a unique commodity, and uniquely deadly.



Quote:
That's all this will ever be. I guess my point was "guns don't cause crime" and you somehow think they do.

not quite. the argument has been that "guns make criminals more deadly." which is a fact that has been proved to you over and over and over in this thread. the fact that you refuse to acknowledge this and then try to reframe the argument, build straw men, and then misquote others simply underscores the point that you don't have a point beyond "i like guns."
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:15 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com