MERGED--> all Gun Control discussion - Page 30 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 05-04-2009, 02:28 PM   #436
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
thank you, you actually just confirmed my arguement about how "assault weapons" are insignificant in relation to handgun, and even other non-firearm weapon murders in the USA. not only that, but "rifles" on that chart also include hunting rifles and not just "assault rifles", so they are even smaller.

__________________

__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 02:31 PM   #437
War Child
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: Carlisle PA
Posts: 818
Local Time: 06:45 PM
"Tens of thousands of kids" seems to include the adults.
__________________

__________________
HyperU2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 02:39 PM   #438
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by HyperU2 View Post
"Tens of thousands of kids" seems to include the adults.
and the dead puppies
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 02:54 PM   #439
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,496
Local Time: 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
again, show me stats that back this up. "GUNS RESULT IN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF DEAD CHILDREN AND DEAD PUPPIES EVERY DAY!!!!!" dont make statements in a discussion that you cant back up, at least thats the way i look at it.


if you are going to engage in a discussion with me, you better go back and read.

i am now and have always been talking about guns in general. you flip back and forth between different kinds of guns depending on which better suits the way the wind blows, and then you add in phrases like "dead puppies" and the totally made up "every day" quote.

the facts are as follows: thousands upon thousands of people are killed each year by hand guns. thousands upon thousands of those who are killed are children. over the decades it amounts to hundreds of thousands of dead Americans killed by guns.

i am asking you if you think that your right to "bear arms" is worth the cost of hundreds of thousands of dead people.

you have yet to answer the question. so back off with your accusations and address the issue at hand, and i'll continue to let you embarrass yourself.
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:05 PM   #440
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
if you are going to engage in a discussion with me, you better go back and read.

i am now and have always been talking about guns in general. you flip back and forth between different kinds of guns depending on which better suits the way the wind blows, and then you add in phrases like "dead puppies" and the totally made up "every day" quote.

the facts are as follows: thousands upon thousands of people are killed each year by hand guns. thousands upon thousands of those who are killed are children. over the decades it amounts to hundreds of thousands of dead Americans killed by guns.

i am asking you if you think that your right to "bear arms" is worth the cost of hundreds of thousands of dead people.

you have yet to answer the question. so back off with your accusations and address the issue at hand, and i'll continue to let you embarrass yourself.

yes, i do. my right to bear arms doesnt force anyone to kill anyone. the people that murder other people are the problem, not just guns. if you ban guns people will still kill eachother. look at the knives, other weapons, and even hands and feet on your link. those arent small numbers either, in fact some of them are more than rifles and shotguns combined. maybe we ought to look at factors that drive us to kill eachother and solve those problems, not just BAN GUNS BAN GUNS!!!

do i think we need better controls to keep guns out of the hands of psychos and criminals, yes.

what do you propose then? what is your solution? ban all guns?

lemme tell you in st thomas they have EXTREME gun control. there are no gun stores at all on the island, and you have to have like 3 permits and background checks to even have one. yet people are still getting shot every weekend. and im sure it is like that in some other places where guns are outlawed, or heavily restricted. how do you explain that? so your solution of just BAN GUNS seems ineffective at stopping gun deaths.

what, we cant have a separate discussion of what an "assault weapon" is? or does all discussion have to be PRO vs ANTI gun?

embarrass myself? why, cause my view is different from yours?

i could give a shit less. this is just a way to keep entertained during my down-time at work.
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:14 PM   #441
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,688
Local Time: 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
ok ill try

first of all, do you believe law abiding citizens should be able to have A gun for personal defense in their home?
I'll use your own logic to answer this... Only a small amount of people a year actually defend themselves with their firearms in their own home.
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:20 PM   #442
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I'll use your own logic to answer this... Only a small amount of people a year actually defend themselves with their firearms in their own home.
so is that a yes or no?

and lemme see numbers
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:25 PM   #443
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,496
Local Time: 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
yes, i do. my right to bear arms doesnt force anyone to kill anyone. if you ban guns people will still kill eachother. look at the knives, other weapons, and even hands and feet on your link. those arent small numbers either, in fact some of them are more than rifles and shotguns combined. maybe we ought to look at factors that drive us to kill eachother and solve those problems, not just BAN GUNS BAN GUNS!!!

first, you're cartooning the other side of the discussion. just as you did with the "puppies" quote fabrication and with the "tens of thousands of murders every day" quote fabrication, you've created a straw man necessary for your hyperbolic language to have any sort of credibility. i have not said "BAN GUNS BAN GUNS," nor has anyone else in here. what people have argued for is gun control, and what i have asked for, specifically, is an admission that the right to bear arms is why there are at least 10,000 murders by handguns in the US every year, and that you feel as if your "right" to bear arms is worth this price.

you've said that it is. thank you. i appreciate the admission.

let's look at the second part of your argument:


Quote:
if you ban guns people will still kill eachother. look at the knives, other weapons, and even hands and feet on your link.

now, let's look at what the link actually says, and we'll just take California, the most populated state:


Quote:
California
Total Murders: 2,249

Total Fire Arms: 1,605

Handguns: 1,374
Rifles: 51
Shotguns: 74
Unknown Firearms: 106
Knivers: 298
Other Weapons 228
Hands, feet, fists, etc.: 118

so you can already see that handguns are responsible for more than 2/3rds of all homicides in California. 2/3rds! do you think that those 1,605 murders would have happened without a handgun? a proportion would have, absolutely, but this underscores the point of gun control -- it's not that the gun itself murders someone else, it's that guns make it very, very, very easy for people to murder other people. and many murders would not have happened at all had there not been a gun present and easily available.

Americans are no more violent than any other Western country, but the reason why our homicide rate is so astronomical compared to the UK or France is because it is so, so easy to get guns in this country. and the reason why it is so easy to get guns in this country is because people like you think that it's your right to own guns at all costs.

and, Constitutionally, that is likely correct. i agree, and i have agreed -- it does seem to be a part of the Constitution. and i know why. i do know that the British crown was violently removed from the Colonies. i also know that there are gun owners who are responsible, there are guns that do prevent crimes, there are people who need guns to defend themselves from bears.

but the fact remains that guns themselves present a significant and clear threat to public health. the constitution is modified all the time. there is no absolute free speech -- the proverbial "can't yell 'fire' in a crowded theater" -- and that the right to "bear arms" begs to be likewise moderated and controlled because we have clear evidence that guns make us less safe, that guns make it easy to kill other people, and that guns themselves often kill children who mishandle them. and this is distinct from, say, a motor vehicle, which kills many more people each year, because of the fact that many Americans are entirely dependent upon motor vehicles, cars themselves are highly regulated, driving itself is highly regulated, roads are highly regulated, everyone who drives is trained and licensed, and the car has a purpose far above and beyond being a weapon.

guns are a unique commodity, and uniquely deadly.





Quote:
so your solution of just BAN GUNS seems ineffective at stopping gun deaths.


there's that strawman again.

want to inform me of what my positions are on other topics?
__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:29 PM   #444
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,688
Local Time: 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
yes, i do. my right to bear arms doesnt force anyone to kill anyone. the people that murder other people are the problem, not just guns. if you ban guns people will still kill eachother. look at the knives, other weapons, and even hands and feet on your link. those arent small numbers either, in fact some of them are more than rifles and shotguns combined. maybe we ought to look at factors that drive us to kill eachother and solve those problems, not just BAN GUNS BAN GUNS!!!
Yes, I think poverty and education need to be dealt with...

But like I've said before, I would much rather take my chances with knife rather than a gun.




Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
lemme tell you in st thomas they have EXTREME gun control. there are no gun stores at all on the island, and you have to have like 3 permits and background checks to even have one. yet people are still getting shot every weekend. and im sure it is like that in some other places where guns are outlawed, or heavily restricted. how do you explain that? so your solution of just BAN GUNS seems ineffective at stopping gun deaths.
Every weekend? Really? I tried looking up some stats, but I couldn't find any, but I did find one article that mentioned that gun violence is rare in St Thomas. But let's not overlook the fact that it's only 2 hours from Detroit.
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:35 PM   #445
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
Yes, I think poverty and education need to be dealt with...

But like I've said before, I would much rather take my chances with knife rather than a gun.






Every weekend? Really? I tried looking up some stats, but I couldn't find any, but I did find one article that mentioned that gun violence is rare in St Thomas. But let's not overlook the fact that it's only 2 hours from Detroit.

2 hours from Detroit???

im talking about the Virgin Islands in the caribbean!
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:38 PM   #446
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,688
Local Time: 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
so is that a yes or no?

and lemme see numbers
That would be a NO.

Numbers? Well they were mentioned in here before, 254 "self defense" shootings(that was the high number year, average is much lower), you factor in how many of those were actually murders that got away with "self defense" and the number is even lower.

BTW, did you hear about the man in Alabama last week that shot himself in the shoulder because he was sleeping with his gun under his pillow?
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:43 PM   #447
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,688
Local Time: 05:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
2 hours from Detroit???

im talking about the Virgin Islands in the caribbean!
I thought you were talking about St Thomas, Ontario.



Yes, that St Thomas had about 27 shootings in 2007 which is the highest it's been.
__________________
BVS is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:47 PM   #448
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
I thought you were talking about St Thomas, Ontario.



Yes, that St Thomas had about 27 shootings in 2007 which is the highest it's been.
shit, there were at least 5 shootings this last month that i know of. just the other day there were 2 stabbings and 1 shooting during Carnival. dont forget there is only something like 75000-100000 people here
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:50 PM   #449
Refugee
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 1,593
Local Time: 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post

BTW, did you hear about the man in Alabama last week that shot himself in the shoulder because he was sleeping with his gun under his pillow?
lemme edit my earlier statement:

"do i think we need better controls to keep guns out of the hands of psychos, criminals, and IDIOTS? yes."

so law abiding citizens that could pass better controls (IF we had them, which i am all for btw) too weed out the above groups shouldn't be allowed to have a gun in their house at all? why not? because they PROBABLY wont ever have to use them?

MY VIEWS ON GUNS IN A NUTSHELL: - for those who think i'm a "gun nut"

- not for outright banning

- for much stronger controls, background checks, mandatory training, restrictions on certain guns

-not against law-abiding, competent, trained individuals owning guns

- think this "assault weapon" language is bullshit

- think we need to fix social problems that cause gun violence, moreso than the guns themselves. poverty, healthcare, education, failed war on drugs, economy, jobs, etc. just a better quality of living for EVERYONE, and im not talking about "liberal ideas" or "socialism", just a better society. it's beyond a left-right issue.
__________________
bigjohn2441 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2009, 03:53 PM   #450
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,496
Local Time: 06:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigjohn2441 View Post
"do i think we need better controls to keep guns out of the hands of psychos, criminals, and IDIOTS? yes."


so how do we do this without infringing on your rights?
__________________

__________________
Irvine511 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:45 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com