MERGED--> all Gun Control discussion

[deep]

I just don't believe that argument holds up anymore.

The legal guns we have would not prevent a dictator anymore than the guns in Iraq or Afghanistan prevented dictators there.

 

[HyperU2]

Even the ATF had to resort to tanks when they disagreed with one groups religion.


I'd love to see your statistics though for private gun ownership in Iraq and Afghanistan under their previous regimes.

 

[deep]

That is just it.

That evil government dictators are not going to choose 'even- handed' weapons.


They will over power what ever "we the people" have.






(funny how Waco has been revised)

 

[HyperU2]

How so? Yeah mean when the truth came out?

 

[martha]

Yeah we can work on ridding ourselves of Free Speech next.

That last administration worked very hard to do that.

 

[HyperU2]

That last administration worked very hard to do that.

Yeah, that's what I keep hearing from people who still have Freedom Of Speech.

 

[martha]

Yeah, that's what I keep hearing from people who still have Freedom Of Speech.

We still have it, but we had to fight against the previous administration very hard for it.

Do you still have your guns?


I thought so.

 

[HyperU2]

Yeah, despite the previous, previous administration.

 

[martha]

So we both still have what we want.

 

[BVS]

(funny how Waco has been revised)

It's interesting isn't it? I'm amazed by how many twist the story, the first person I ever heard was actually in here, and since then met several, and it always seems to be for political reasons.

 

[HyperU2]

Heard many twisting Ruby Ridge? I guess you support that kind of shit then?

 

[BVS]

It's so obvious when you get put in a corner, you just change the subject...

 

[deep]

I remember the Waco incident as it unfolded

about a 7- 8 week stand off

David Koresh was not an innocent.

At the time the nightly news reports kept faulting the Clinton Administration and Reno for allowing this to go on day after day.

Towards the end there were reports of child abuse. Some of the parents wanted their kids sent out. Koresh would not release them. Daily, politicians and critics were calling on the Administration to act. When they did Koresh and some of his fanatics burned the place down with women and children inside.

Koresh was a messianic nut case. To leave children with him would have been wrong.

 

[HyperU2]

Koresh was a messianic nut case. To leave children with him would have been wrong.

Worked out much better this way?

It's so obvious when you get put in a corner, you just change the subject...

That's not a change. I like to fight when I'm in a corner. Hell I like to fight when I'm not.

 

[bigjohn2441]

The main reason the Second amendment exist is because the founders wanted "the people" to be armed so they would have the power to protect themselves from tyrants like King George III, and any future tyrants that may pop up.
Taking power reserved for a sovereign and giving it "to the people".

the problem is "the people" today tend to be ignorant and dare i say stupid.

btw, good to be back. i was without internet for about a week there

 

[martha]

the problem is "the people" today tend to be ignorant

When were "the people" not ignorant?

 

[bigjohn2441]

well in colonial times they werent, thats for sure.

i cant really say cause ive only been around since 1985, but from what ive read and stuff ive watched it seems there has been a "dumbing down" of sorts since the 70s or so

 

[martha]

well in colonial times they werent, thats for sure.

Really? How many were slaveholders? How many were qualified to vote? What's your definition of "ignorant" then?

i cant really say cause ive only been around since 1985, but from what ive read and stuff ive watched it seems there has been a "dumbing down" of sorts since the 70s or so

Be careful of the trap of the "good old days." I doubt very much if you would think the people of the 70s were less ignorant than people are now. What's been "dumbed down" since then? Give us an example.

 

[bigjohn2441]

Really? How many were slaveholders? How many were qualified to vote? What's your definition of "ignorant" then?

by "ignorant" i mean not up on current events and not having a general awareness of whats going on in the world. also something like not being able to think critically and only listening to what the TV says.

Be careful of the trap of the "good old days." I doubt very much if you would think the people of the 70s were less ignorant than people are now. What's been "dumbed down" since then? Give us an example.

i think education has gone down the shitter a little bit since then.

i read some outrageous statistic a while ago, something around 20% of people aged 18-25 cant point to the USA on a map. i actually did a little test at my previous job a while back in which i asked my co-workers to point to iraq on a map. i think like 1 out of 10 knew where it was. some of them were in highschool, some my age or a little older, and some were in there 40s.

another i can think of is the stuff on TV now is nothing compaired to what i remember as a kid. there were actually good shows on back then. and MTV actually used to play MUSIC. now it's all mindless bullshit that makes people stupid. everything is reality nonsense and almost nothing is thought-provoking anymore.

people seem to be so engrossed in their little gadgets like cell phones, ipods, etc etc that it seems to warp their minds or something

you think today's youth were as involved in issues as they were in the 60's?

im not saying there werent stupid people back then, im just saying there seems to be more stupid people today, most of which probably shouldnt have guns. like that moron man and woman a couple weeks ago that shot the 7 or 8 year old boy and his family 'cause they wuz trespassin on my goddamn property!'

 

[BVS]

Wow... a little young to be pining for the "good ole days", don't you think?

 

[bigjohn2441]

yup, im a grumpy old man in a young man's body

 

[martha]

by "ignorant" i mean not up on current events and not having a general awareness of whats going on in the world. also something like not being able to think critically and only listening to what the TV says.



i think education has gone down the shitter a little bit since then.

i read some outrageous statistic a while ago, something around 20% of people aged 18-25 cant point to the USA on a map. i actually did a little test at my previous job a while back in which i asked my co-workers to point to iraq on a map. i think like 1 out of 10 knew where it was. some of them were in highschool, some my age or a little older, and some were in there 40s.

another i can think of is the stuff on TV now is nothing compaired to what i remember as a kid. there were actually good shows on back then. and MTV actually used to play MUSIC. now it's all mindless bullshit that makes people stupid. everything is reality nonsense and almost nothing is thought-provoking anymore.

people seem to be so engrossed in their little gadgets like cell phones, ipods, etc etc that it seems to warp their minds or something

you think today's youth were as involved in issues as they were in the 60's?

im not saying there werent stupid people back then, im just saying there seems to be more stupid people today, most of which probably shouldnt have guns. like that moron man and woman a couple weeks ago that shot the 7 or 8 year old boy and his family 'cause they wuz trespassin on my goddamn property!'

This nostalgia you have for a time when you weren't even alive is common, I think. "Somehow it must have been better back then; no one could have been as stupid as people are now."

Well, guess what. People were smarter back then, people were stupider back then. People were people back then, just like they are now.

There were people who couldn't find Iraq on a map in the 70s. There were people curing polio in the 40s. There are people discovering cancer's link to a virus nowadays. There are people believing everything Rush says in the 00s. There were people lynching blacks in the 30s. There were people working to get women the vote back in the 10s. There are people working to stop child marriage today.

Longing for what were the good old days is a pointless exercise. Learning from the past is much more productive.

Oh, and as far as TV is concerned... it was stupid then, and it's stupid now.

 

[BVS]

 

[bigjohn2441]

There were people who couldn't find Iraq on a map in the 70s.

true, but we werent in a war with them back then. you'd think people would know or SHOULD know where a place would be on a map where we've been in a war for almost 8 years now. but maybe thats just me.

im guessing there were people who didnt know where Vietnam was on a map back then. as many as people today who don't know where Iraq is on a map? i think not. people seemed to be more involved back then. going out and protesting and all that. now people just say "Bush is an idiot, we shouldnt be in Ir... oh wait, isnt American Idol on tonight?" that is IF they even give a shit about the war.

how many people could point to Vietnam on a map today? that's a scary thought.

 

[martha]

true, but we werent in a war with them back then. you'd think people would know or SHOULD know where a place would be on a map where we've been in a war for almost 8 years now. but maybe thats just me.

No, Iraq was a staunch ally then. (See what I mean about the craziness of nostalgia? ) They couldn't find Iran either. And they were holding Americans hostage.

im guessing there were people who didnt know where Vietnam was on a map back then. as many as people today who don't know where Iraq is on a map? i think not.

Don't guess; go find out.

people seemed to be more involved back then. going out and protesting and all that. now people just say "Bush is an idiot, we shouldnt be in Ir... oh wait, isnt American Idol on tonight?"

Haven't you seen the pictures and the footage of all the anti-war protests that have been going on for the past eight years?

And the parents of the protesters back then were watching Ed Sullivan rather than protest.

how many people could point to Vietnam on a map today? that's a scary thought.

Probably no more than could find it on a map when the US was sending advisors there in the 50s.

 

[bigjohn2441]

Don't guess; go find out.

ok, ill get in my time machine and go back with blank world maps and conduct surveys.

my original point was that people seem to not give a shit about current events as they did back in colonial times when the 2nd amendmet was created. if you are arguing the point that the 2nd amendment is our ability to fight off tyranny and oppression (which i have before), you have to take that into account.

the government back then feared the people because it knew they would take up arms if it got out of line, as they did with the British. now the government can do whatever it wants because it knows people dont give a shit anymore, or are ignorant to whats going on. so that argument isnt really relevant anymore, although it SHOULD be.

 

[BVS]

the government back then feared the people because it knew they would take up arms if it got out of line, as they did with the British. now the government can do whatever it wants because it knows people dont give a shit anymore, or are ignorant to whats going on. so that argument isnt really valid anymore, although it SHOULD be.

I don't think this is the case at all...

The government isn't "scared" of people taking up arms because it wouldn't be a fair fight, anyone who thinks it would be is fooling themselves. Now of course there will always be delusional militia types, but for the most part the majority is sane enough to understand that is not how to react anymore.

Government will always fear the people for one reason... VOTES.

 

[bigjohn2441]

I don't think this is the case at all...

The government isn't "scared" of people taking up arms because it wouldn't be a fair fight, anyone who thinks it would be is fooling themselves. Now of course there will always be delusional militia types, but for the most part the majority is sane enough to understand that is not how to react anymore.

Government will always fear the people for one reason... VOTES.

if only our votes meant anything. both parties seem to be for big government so whats the difference.

the majority of people were against the bailout money, but that happened anyway. the majority seemed to be against the iraq war, but it is still going on and went on for how long? you really think your votes are going to change anything?

now im not saying we should go shoot people or anything, just pointing out that our system is broken.

 

[BVS]

if only our votes meant anything. both parties seem to be for big government so whats the difference.

If the majority wanted both parties out they would have voted that way...

 

[martha]

my original point was that people seem to not give a shit about current events as they did back in colonial times when the 2nd amendmet was created.

And just how do you know what the people back in colonial times thought about "current events"? How many supported the Rebels? How many supported the Tories? And how many were just trying to get through their day?

the government back then feared the people because it knew they would take up arms if it got out of line, as they did with the British.

The government kept the "people" in check by limiting voting rights, not weapons.

now the government can do whatever it wants because it knows people dont give a shit anymore, or are ignorant to whats going on.

You have a point. W was reelected.