MERGED--> all Gun Control discussion

[HyperU2]

BBC NEWS | Health | Woman has first face transplant


Woman has first face transplant
Surgeons operating
The operation lasted several hours
Surgeons in France have carried out the first face transplant, it has been reported.

The woman had lost her nose, lips and chin after being savaged by a dog.

In the controversial operation, tissues, muscles, arteries and veins were taken from a brain-dead donor and attached to the patient's lower face.

Doctors stress the woman will not look like her donor, but nor will she look like she did before the attack - instead she will have a "hybrid" face.


This is the first face transplant using skin from another person
Iain Hutchison, Barts and the London Hospital

Q&A: First face transplant

It has been technically possible to carry out such a transplant for some years, with teams in the US, the UK and France researching the procedure.

Skin from another person's face is better for transplants as it will be a better match than skin from another part of the patient's body, which could have a different texture or colour.

But the ethical concerns of a face transplant, and the psychological impact to the patient of looking different has held teams back.

Concerns relating to immunosuppression, psychological impact and the consequence of technical failure have so far prevented ethical approval of the procedure in the UK, though doctors here are fully able to perform transplants.

 

[Bluer White]

YouTube - William Shatner Demonstrates Proper Gun Control

 

[Irvine511]

in France, it's a dog attack.

in the US, it's a shotgun blast.

telling.

 

[bigjohn2441]

in France, it's a dog attack.

in the US, it's a shotgun blast.

telling.

why dont you move to france if you hate the US so much?



sorry couldnt resist!

just remembering a few years back during our little "hate france cause they dont support iraq" period where people actually said shit like that and meant it.

 

[Irvine511]

why dont you move to france if you hate the US so much?



sorry couldnt resist!

just remembering a few years back during our little "hate france cause they dont support iraq" period where people actually said shit like that and meant it.

i love and hate both places with equal ardor.

 

[BVS]

One of those things that never happens happened again.

I hope the girl makes it.

It will be interesting to see if anymore details about this story comes out. It's a very odd story.

I'm really not sure if this is a pro-gun story or not, they are pretty elusive about where this student got the gun. The video just says one student encouraged another to make a move for a gun that was in a backpack nearby. Was this the student's gun or a back the masked men brought in? We'll see.

 

[yolland]

in France, it's a dog attack.

in the US, it's a shotgun blast.

telling.

Un chien est un outil, Irvine; pas meilleur et pas plus mauvais que tout autre outil. Souvenez-vous de cela.

 

[Irvine511]

j'ai fait des réserves à un restaurant français pour ce vendredi pour quatre personnes, et le maitre d repris le téléphone et parle en français, et j'ai pensé un moment à essayer de parler en français, mais il ne devait pas être.

 

[yolland]

Bonne idée. Sans aucun doute, votre téléphone est déjà mis sur écoute.

 

[maycocksean]

One of those things that never happens happened again.

I've never suggested that such things "NEVER" happen. I've simply said they don't happen as often as the gunslingers would like to think.

tell you what, if you can provide me stats that indicate that such incidences as you posted above are more common than accidental gun deaths and "arguments that went wrong" I will happily concede my stand on strict gun control and fully support a heavily armed, law-abiding U.S. population.

 

[HyperU2]

I've never suggested that such things "NEVER" happen. I've simply said they don't happen as often as the gunslingers would like to think.

tell you what, if you can provide me stats that indicate that such incidences as you posted above are more common than accidental gun deaths and "arguments that went wrong" I will happily concede my stand on strict gun control and fully support a heavily armed, law-abiding U.S. population.

While they don't often involve a fatal shooting, I'd be more than willing to bet that guns being used to scare off invaders happens way more than accidental gun deaths. As far as arguments going wrong, I've seen a lot of cases like that where we may want to consider a ban on keeping knives in the house.

 

[bigjohn2441]

you know that story hyper posted made me think of another point id like to make.

first off im not directing this at anyone in particular, nor do i know what any of you have been through in life. it's easy to sit on your computer safe and sound having never been a victim of a violent crime to mouth off about how bad guns are and how much they kill people and why people dont need them and lets ban them etc etc. but when the shit hits the fan and it's you in that situation where you, your family or friends are about to be raped and/or killed, i bet you damn sure would wish you had a gun then. or you'd be glad as hell someone else had a gun to try and save your ass.

assaults, rapes, attempted murders, robberies, burglaries, home invasions. how many victims of these types of crimes are there? i wonder how many of them went out and got a gun afterwards. if not that, i wonder how many of them were against firearms before they were a victim, but changed their opinion afterwards and wished they had a gun on them at the time?

dont even bother saying "well that stuff happens so little that your arguement is weak", thats not the point. that stuff DOES happen and it COULD happen to you. and if, god forbid, it ever does, you may find yourself switching your position on firearms.

 

[HyperU2]

I'd much rather have a gun I'll never need than not have a gun when I need it.

 

[maycocksean]

While they don't often involve a fatal shooting, I'd be more than willing to bet that guns being used to scare off invaders happens way more than accidental gun deaths. As far as arguments going wrong, I've seen a lot of cases like that where we may want to consider a ban on keeping knives in the house.

If you can provide solid evidence that the benefits outweigh the costs, I have no problem changing my position. I'll even accept "scare-offs." But you're willingness to bet isn't sufficient. We've discussed the number of lives lost to guns, what about the number of lives saved. As for banning knives, I think we'd all have a great deal of difficulty cutting our tomatoes if they were banned. Knives have other uses besides killing things.

 

[maycocksean]

you know that story hyper posted made me think of another point id like to make.

first off im not directing this at anyone in particular, nor do i know what any of you have been through in life. it's easy to sit on your computer safe and sound having never been a victim of a violent crime to mouth off about how bad guns are and how much they kill people and why people dont need them and lets ban them etc etc. but when the shit hits the fan and it's you in that situation where you, your family or friends are about to be raped and/or killed, i bet you damn sure would wish you had a gun then. or you'd be glad as hell someone else had a gun to try and save your ass.

assaults, rapes, attempted murders, robberies, burglaries, home invasions. how many victims of these types of crimes are there? i wonder how many of them went out and got a gun afterwards. if not that, i wonder how many of them were against firearms before they were a victim, but changed their opinion afterwards and wished they had a gun on them at the time?

dont even bother saying "well that stuff happens so little that your arguement is weak", thats not the point. that stuff DOES happen and it COULD happen to you. and if, god forbid, it ever does, you may find yourself switching your position on firearms.

This does give one pause.

If I'm being honest, I'm not sure how I'd feel if something like that happened to me or the people I love. I tend to think you're right. . .that I'd prefer to have a gun in such a situation rather than not. But that's not enough to make me think that lax gun control laws are the way to go. I'm not basing my position on raw emotion, no matter how justified. And that's really what you're talking about. A victims decision to go out and purchase a gun or to wish they'd had one on them isn't necessarily rational thinking. There's lot of trauma, hurt, fear etc motivating that decision--and I'm not critcizing that, nor am I unsympathetic. But the fact is said victim is not necessarily making themselves safer in actuality--they are making themselves FEEL safer.

Of course this easy to say now, when I'm safe and all is well--I get that. I guess I'm suggesting that just because something is easy to say doesn't mean it's not true.

 

[HyperU2]

If you can provide solid evidence that the benefits outweigh the costs, I have no problem changing my position. I'll even accept "scare-offs." But you're willingness to bet isn't sufficient. We've discussed the number of lives lost to guns, what about the number of lives saved. As for banning knives, I think we'd all have a great deal of difficulty cutting our tomatoes if they were banned. Knives have other uses besides killing things.

As are my guns, but my point is statistics about scare offs aren't kept. Sometimes there isn't even police involvement.

 

[maycocksean]

As are my guns, but my point is statistics about scare offs aren't kept. Sometimes there isn't even police involvement.

So let's ignore the stats we do have and legislate based on your hunches? Is that what you're suggesting?

and I knew you'd say that about your guns. What else do you use them for besides entertainment and home defense? Remind me again what the primary purpose of guns is? (Hint: It's the same as the primary purpose of bow and arrows--I'm not saying it's a bad thing necessarily--I'm just saying let's not pretend a gun is the same as a car or knife) And what's the primary purpose of knives?

 

[HyperU2]

No, I'd urge more of a study on the matter instead of opinions of either side. The only stats I've found about guns being used for that sort of thing estimates it happens 2 million times a year. Which even I think is unreasonably high. I know of two cases in my town of 20,000 last year though.

Hunting? Most gun owners simply use them to get the food that they cut with their knives.

 

[deep]

One of those things that never happens happened again.

College Student Shoots, Kills Home Invader - News Story - WSB Atlanta

College Student Shoots, Kills Home Invader

Posted: 4:53 pm EDT May 4, 2009Updated: 6:41 pm EDT May 4, 2009
COLLEGE PARK, Ga. -- A group of college students said they are lucky to be alive and they’re thanking the quick-thinking of one of their own. Police said a fellow student shot and killed one of two masked me who burst into an apartment.

Channel 2 Action News reporter Tom Jones met with one of the students to talk about the incident.

“Apparently, his intent was to rape and murder us all,” said student Charles Bailey.

TOM JONES: College Student Shoots, Kills Home Invader

Bailey said he thought it was the end of his life and the lives of the 10 people inside his apartment for a birthday party after two masked men with guns burst in through a patio door.

“They just came in and separated the men from the women and said, ‘Give me your wallets and cell phones,’” said George Williams of the College Park Police Department.

Bailey said the gunmen started counting bullets. “The other guy asked how many (bullets) he had. He said he had enough,” said Bailey.

That’s when one student grabbed a gun out of a backpack and shot at the invader who was watching the men. The gunman ran out of the apartment.

The student then ran to the room where the second gunman, identified by police as 23-year-old Calvin Lavant, was holding the women.

“Apparently the guy was getting ready to rape his girlfriend. So he told the girls to get down and he started shooting. The guy jumped out of the window,” said Bailey.

A neighbor heard the shots and heard someone running nearby.

“And I heard someone say, ‘Someone help me. Call the police. Somebody call the police,’” said a neighbor.

The neighbor said she believes it was Lavant, who was found dead near his apartment, only one building away.

Bailey said he is just thankful one student risked his life to keep others alive.

“I think all of us are really cognizant of the fact that we could have all been killed,” said Bailey.

One female student was shot several times during the crossfire. She is expected to make a full recovery.

Police said they are close to making the arrest of the second suspect.

I took the time to go to the link and watch the video.

it seems this story as simple as presented

Here is a link to some more information.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article973945.ece?comments=legacy

 

[HyperU2]

I took the time to go to the link and watch the video.

it seems this story as simple as presented

Here is a link to some more information.

Third suspect arrested in man's slaying at Pasco home - St. Petersburg Times

The one I posted didn't happen in Oct.

 

[deep]

see, I told you it did not add up


my mistake aside (curse you google and similar names and crimes)


after I watched the video on your link, I just thought it seemed a bit odd
that these guys would count the bullets, then announce, ok line up for execution

also, the victim's reaction when he was told the guy lived a few doors down seemed a bit off

I am wondering if there is a past relationship of some sort.

 

[yolland]

FBI data:

Murders, by Circumstance and Weapon Type, 2007

Justifiable Homicides by Private Citizens, by Weapon Type, 2003-2007

 

[BVS]

No, I'd urge more of a study on the matter instead of opinions of either side. The only stats I've found about guns being used for that sort of thing estimates it happens 2 million times a year. Which even I think is unreasonably high. I know of two cases in my town of 20,000 last year though.

What happens 2 million times a year?

Hunting? Most gun owners simply use them to get the food that they cut with their knives.

Actually, this would be an interesting survey, to find out how many hunters actually use the meat vs how many just hunt for the "sport" of it...

 

[HyperU2]

What happens 2 million times a year?



Actually, this would be an interesting survey, to find out how many hunters actually use the meat vs how many just hunt for the "sport" of it...

People using a firearm to prevent crime.


I'm sure the majority do. I stopped hunting long ago.

 

[maycocksean]

No, I'd urge more of a study on the matter instead of opinions of either side. .

I'm cool with that.

Hunting? Most gun owners simply use them to get the food that they cut with their knives.

Hunting is legitimate, yes. But the point remains that a gun's primary purpose is for killing things, just like a bow and arrow. Ideally, animals only. Granted a sword is "worse" in this sense as it's ONLY purpose is to kill people, but I don't think there have been a whole lot of sword killings of late so I don't think the numbers support any restrictions. (I am being slightly tongue in cheek by the way, in case someone missed the humor).

 

[maycocksean]

FBI data:

Murders, by Circumstance and Weapon Type, 2007

Justifiable Homicides by Private Citizens, by Weapon Type, 2003-2007

Wow. Did you guys take a look at those numbers? To me there is a very clear case based on these numbers for the severe restriction of handguns, but not placing heavy restrictions on rifles and shotguns (which are used for hunting as has already been pointed out. Handguns on the other hand have no other purpose--beyond target shooting--but killing human beings). 7,361 murders committed in 2007 with guns compared to 1,796 with knives. But if you subtract out the handguns, more murders have been committed with knives than with rifles or handguns.

Furthermore, the number of justifiable homicides involving guns are only 254. Those are definitely NOT the numbers to suggest that the cost of loose gun control laws is worth the benefit in personal/public safety.

 

[BVS]

People using a firearm to prevent crime.

Where did you get that number?

I'm sure the majority do. I stopped hunting long ago.

Yeah, I wouldn't venture a guess, the hunters I've met are about 50/50, so I don't know.

I have family members that are very much the grow and kill the majority of their food types, and I know many of the shoot to stuff types...

 

[HyperU2]

.

Furthermore, the number of justifiable homicides involving guns are only 254. Those are definitely NOT the numbers to suggest that the cost of loose gun control laws is worth the benefit in personal/public safety.

254 deaths don't account for shootings not involving death or instances where shots weren't fired. Neither of the cases from my town had any shots fired.

Where did you get that number?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Kleck

 

[anitram]

254 deaths don't account for shootings not involving death or instances where shots weren't fired. Neither of the cases from my town had any shots fired.[/url]

We're comparing deaths.

If you want to compare non-fatal gun injuries then your 254 would go up, but the 7000+ gun-related deaths would also skyrocket.

Therefore I'm not sure how this strengthens your argument at all.

 

[BVS]

Gary Kleck - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Yeah, I did some further reading... 15 similar studies done that year alone and the numbers range from 100,000 to Kleck's 2 million. It seems like this guy is considered a hack by many in his field...