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Old 04-14-2009, 12:47 AM   #151
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We have the same in TX but you still can't carry everywhere and that is my point, so the whole "carried freely" part of your post was a little misleading. Bars, campuses, arenas, etc still can't carry.

But our road rage deaths go up every year.

Road rage I can understand.

I was referring to malls, movie theaters, in PA we can carry anywhere except for federal and state buildings though bars are discouraged for obvious reasons.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:54 AM   #152
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Innocent people die from a number of things. The reason I brought up cities is because of how they skew our statistics as a nation. When one city (Philadelphia) has the same about of homicides as one state (Indiana) despite only having one sixth of the population, you can't say that the country is being shot to pieces. Montana probably has 4 guns for every citizen and they only had 10 homicides by gun in 2007.
Yes but you seem to overlook the point that certain populations are going to naturally have more crime. The density of populations in Montana are much different from Philly. The economics are different, there are so many factors. Just like college campuses.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:55 AM   #153
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Yes but you seem to overlook the point that certain populations are going to naturally have more crime. The density of populations in Montana are much different from Philly. The economics are different, there are so many factors. Just like college campuses.
But the presence of guns does not cause crime.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:03 AM   #154
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Guns make it get reported more frequently.
Because they're more likely to result in fatalities, you mean? Guns are the weapon used in 68% of US murders, far more than knives (12%), fists/kicks (6%), and "other" (14%--blunt object, poison, burning, strangling etc.). (That's FBI 2007 data.) It's extremely unlikely that our murder rate would remain as high as it is if it were harder to acquire handguns (used in 80% of firearms murders that same year).

Of course it's true that a major city is going to have a higher murder rate than Montana, but that doesn't mean its murder rate would remain the same without all the (hand)guns.
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Old 04-14-2009, 01:03 AM   #155
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But the presence of guns does not cause crime.
You keep saying it.

We keep agreeing.

We state that the access to guns will increase the ease of use...

and you keep ignoring. If guns started to get controlled in the 70's we would have less guns in the hands of "law abiding" citizens and criminals right now.

Crime will continue to occur, no one is arguing against this... I just like my odds against a knife more than I do a gun.
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Old 04-14-2009, 02:58 AM   #156
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Because they're more likely to result in fatalities, you mean? Guns are the weapon used in 68% of US murders, far more than knives (12%), fists/kicks (6%), and "other" (14%--blunt object, poison, burning, strangling etc.). (That's FBI 2007 data.) It's extremely unlikely that our murder rate would remain as high as it is if it were harder to acquire handguns (used in 80% of firearms murders that same year).

Of course it's true that a major city is going to have a higher murder rate than Montana, but that doesn't mean its murder rate would remain the same without all the (hand)guns.
Even in DC and Chicago where handguns were banned? There are already checks in place to acquire handguns, if only we had to worry about lawful gun owners.
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Old 04-14-2009, 05:37 AM   #157
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Well, but obviously we also have to worry about unlawful gun owners--that's the problem with strictly local bans; people can get around them by smuggling in guns from other states/municipalities where no such purchase restrictions apply. As I posted earlier, by FBI/DoJ estimate around 40% of gun crimes are committed with illegally acquired guns, and presumably that figure would be higher in a high-crime area. But you can't toss all notion of guns making killing (too much) easier out the window just because the word 'criminal' is invoked; it doesn't follow that if someone is willing to murder at all, then they'd have murdered just as many with a knife.

The DC ban was implemented in 1975, Chicago's in 1982. The arrival of the crack cocaine epidemic in the late '80s-early '90s, right in the middle of those policies' tenure, makes easy conclusions about their effects difficult, since the resulting criminal 'business' opportunities obviously meant enhanced incentives to acquire guns illegally and there's really no way to know how things might (or might not) have been different had handguns also been locally--and legally--readily available. I haven't seen any data on homicide rates in those cities during the earlier, pre-crack-cocaine years immediately following the bans; I just know rates fell dramatically from the mid-90s through to the present (from 474 in 1990, to 181 in 2007 in DC's case; from 851 in 1990, to 442 in 2007 in Chicago's case). I'm also not sure to what extent those bans applied to poorly-regulated 'secondary market' sales (gun shows etc.)--which, again per FBI/DoJ estimate, are where some 45% of guns used in crimes are acquired.
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Old 04-14-2009, 06:01 AM   #158
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If you drop a magic bomb eliminating guns in the US they will be as easy to acquire as illegal drugs. Gang bangers aren't going to go without. Even the UK has seen a rise in handgun crime after getting rid of private ownership, and they're an island. Our illegal guns will just walk over the border.
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Old 04-14-2009, 08:00 AM   #159
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If you drop a magic bomb eliminating guns in the US they will be as easy to acquire as illegal drugs. Gang bangers aren't going to go without. Even the UK has seen a rise in handgun crime after getting rid of private ownership, and they're an island. Our illegal guns will just walk over the border.
As easy as illegal drugs? Doubt it. Not to say it would be impossible, but not even close to that easy... The how to and the space needed to smuggle drugs is much easier than guns and ammo. The number of guns manufactured in Mexico is pretty small. Plus the black market price would be much higher deterring your common thief or thug that can pick up a gun for $30 on the street now.
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Old 04-14-2009, 10:45 AM   #160
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Even in DC and Chicago where handguns were banned? There are already checks in place to acquire handguns, if only we had to worry about lawful gun owners.



it's pretty easy to go across the river to VA and get all the guns you want.
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Old 04-14-2009, 12:57 PM   #161
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Or just a stone's trow drive for Marylanders. Just ask anyone of us. 90% of the murders occur in certain areas of Baltimore City. Doesn't take a genius to figure out why. Gangs, drugs and guns. Deadly combination.
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Old 04-14-2009, 04:27 PM   #162
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Criminals killing other criminals is a whole other aspect. It's probably 45% of our murder rate.
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Old 04-14-2009, 04:29 PM   #163
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Criminals killing other criminals is a whole other aspect.
How is it a whole other aspect?

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It's probably 45% of our murder rate.
Are we just making up stats now?
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Old 04-14-2009, 04:33 PM   #164
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How is it a whole other aspect?


Are we just making up stats now?

People want to ban guns because of shooting sprees, when it's the gang bangers doing the most homicides. People that will continue to have guns and kill each other after we're all disarmed. No, that's what I'd call a pretty good ballpark figure. (hence the probably) Nearly every inner city homicide in my general area is drug or turf related. And the inner cities are where the majority of our killings occur.
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Old 04-14-2009, 04:42 PM   #165
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People want to ban guns because of shooting sprees, when it's the gang bangers doing the most homicides. People that will continue to have guns and kill each other after we're all disarmed.
People don't want to ban because of shooting sprees. People want to try and find a way to diminish homicides period. Some people by controlling those devices most used they may save some lives.

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No, that's what I'd call a pretty good ballpark figure. (hence the probably) Nearly every inner city homicide in my general area is drug or turf related. And the inner cities are where the majority of our killings occur.
Personally, I would say that number is high, but honestly it's almost impossible to calculate. I'm not aware of anyone tracking down the criminal records of the dead.
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