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Old 07-17-2012, 04:23 PM   #31
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The earth will be fine regardless of what happens. Species being wiped out, climate changing--that's always been a part of this planet's history with and without human help, and the Earth will solider on.
Right, but do you not feel remorse for being part of eradicating a species or Eco system from the planet, never to be seen again? Sure, it happens regardless, but not in such large numbers (save for a catastrophic event) and I'd prefer to contribute as little as possible
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:35 PM   #32
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Right, but do you not feel remorse for being part of eradicating a species or Eco system from the planet, never to be seen again? Sure, it happens regardless, but not in such large numbers (save for a catastrophic event) and I'd prefer to contribute as little as possible
Of course. The whole idea of leaving a place like you found it just makes sense to me on a very basic level, especially when it's a place of beauty and wonder.

There are many reasons to care for the earth, preserve the environment etc, but I think one of the biggest ones is for our own sake. When we "destroy" the earth, what we are really destroying above all is our own ability to live in it as we have in the long term. To me that argument is absolutely humanistic when we are talking about environmentalism, and as such I find it absurd that folks would argue that environmentalism is "anti-human."
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:36 PM   #33
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:37 PM   #34
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Of course, if you're a conservative Christian like me, I suppose you could beg off on the coming apocalypse and say it doesn't matter anyway.

But that would involve ignoring a little nugget in Revelation about God's view on those who destroy the earth (it's not a positive one, let's just say.)

Not that such a rationale for caring for the environment would mean much to you.
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Old 07-17-2012, 04:38 PM   #35
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Hehehe
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:04 PM   #36
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the rest of us will continue to swelter through this summer on a planet that's probably already past the tipping point
Even as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. —Jude 1:7
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:09 PM   #37
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Mmmmmm strange flesh
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:13 PM   #38
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I won't bore you, but there is lots written about precisely the focus on "life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" as the underlying theme of the document versus the type of language that you see in other constitutions.
Our constitution lays out unalienable and negative rights, newer constitutions, positive rights.

The Founders, and traditionally the majority of Americans, have understood that for government to provide a "right" to one group they must indenture another. Furthermore, that "a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:19 PM   #39
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Our constitution lays out unalienable and negative rights, newer constitutions, positive rights.
Not just that, but historically the US is unique in having a cohesive, single constitutional document - you see that now with very new constitutions in emerging nations but not historically. For example, the UK has no Constitution - they have constitutional documents, but it makes for a difficult comparison.

Anyway, it's a really interesting are of law and policy.
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:25 PM   #40
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The UK has no written Constitution.
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Old 07-17-2012, 05:27 PM   #41
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Right - it's similar to other places without a written constitution but with what are considered to be guiding constitutional documents.
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Old 07-17-2012, 06:12 PM   #42
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The Founders, and traditionally the majority of Americans, have understood that for government to provide a "right" to one group they must indenture another. Furthermore, that "a government big enough to give you everything you want is a government big enough to take from you everything you have."


"traditionally the majority"?

why do you feel as if the present administration is this massive, seismic upheaval from all of American history? on what basis to you purport to speak for the swath of Americans who've ever lived? certainly not on a historical basis.

my late FDR-loving grandparents who lived off social security, medicare, good pensions, public schools, and all the other benefits that flowed from much, much higher tax rates than we have today and resulted in the creation of the modern middle class would all beg to differ with you.
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:07 PM   #43
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The Founders, and traditionally the majority of Americans, have understood that for government to provide a "right" to one group they must indenture another.
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my late FDR-loving grandparents who lived off social security, medicare, good pensions, public schools, and all the other benefits that flowed from much, much higher tax rates than we have today and resulted in the creation of the modern middle class would all beg to differ with you.
Millennial Generation, meet Irvine's FDR-loving grandparents and enjoy paying for their "social security, medicare, good pensions, public schools, and all the other benefits" for the rest of your lives. My Social Security and Medicare too for that matter.
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Old 07-17-2012, 09:28 PM   #44
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Millennial Generation, meet Irvine's FDR-loving grandparents and enjoying paying for their "social security, medicare, good pensions, public schools, and all the other benefits" for the rest of your lives. My Social Security and Medicare too for that matter.

you'll be opting out of those, right? you wouldn't want a hand out that's only going to encourage unwed mothers to suckle their babies at the teet of big government?

we can pay for it with more revenue. look at tax rates in the 1950s, 1960s, 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s.

my grandparents are all dead, btw. and they were the products of a mid-century middle class that the right wing has been dismantling since 1980.
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Old 07-17-2012, 10:45 PM   #45
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you'll be opting out of those, right? you wouldn't want a hand out that's only going to encourage unwed mothers to suckle their babies at the teet of big government?
Ha, yeah, this. Please, conservatives, don't take that evil government money or aid. That would certainly help free things up for the rest of us!

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Millennial Generation, meet Irvine's FDR-loving grandparents and enjoy paying for their "social security, medicare, good pensions, public schools, and all the other benefits" for the rest of your lives. My Social Security and Medicare too for that matter.
I am part of the millenial generation. Do I want to deny my mom her social security she worked hard for all these years? Should my parents have refused Medicare when my dad was sick? Should my grandparents (all of whom, like Irvine's, have long since passed) have been denied that stuff? No. And I went to public school as well. I'm all for continuing to support making sure future generations get access to the sort of education I got.

I'm NOT in the mood to have my generation pay off wars we didn't ask for, though. I'm not in the mood to have my money continue to go to corporate influences that will only screw with it. I'm not in the mood to pay off the financial crap that was tied to Wall Street. Funny how nobody seems to be talking about us having to pay for that crap, though.

There's a whole mess of debt my generation's going to have to pay for that we didn't ask for, absolutely. But programs that help people, programs my family and others I know have benefited from, don't exactly come up on my list of things I'd hate to pay for.
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