Men must speak up on abortion debate

[Irvine511]

I feel like the pro-choice side automatically asks this question right off the bat to someone who is pro-life. Because whatever their answer, if they say they would support abortion being legal in such an instance they get called hypocritical, and if they say no they get called crazy, or anything along that line.

so maybe the pro-life position is difficult to intellectually defend in any sort of consistent manner, making the pro-choice people right?



(i wouldn't agree ... i think there's a *very* consistent pro-life/anti-choice message ... it's just much, much harder to actually implement and most people who are anti-choice aren't willing to actually spend the money to care for other people, only fetuses, and then after 9 months, boom, you're on your damn own and better stop suckling at the teat of big government)

 

[PhilsFan]

I feel like the pro-choice side automatically asks this question right off the bat to someone who is pro-life. Because whatever their answer, if they say they would support abortion being legal in such an instance they get called hypocritical, and if they say no they get called crazy, or anything along that line.

I automatically ask this question because I have good arguments against both answers, arguments that we usually never get to hear because this debate never goes beyond "women's rights vs. baby killers."

 

[dazzledbylight]

Just saw this thread. I'll have to read the article next week.

I don't really have time to look at comment on the posts here right now, but wanted to post a quick memory/ comment.

I've been at 3, maybe 4 Choice mrach's in DC.
The first three were in the eighties when those people started to really get their groups and increase their activites/threats of taking away a woman's Right To Choose.

Then I went to the big rally in the ? mid-2000's >2005? or so.

I couldn't beleive that 20 Fucking Years LATER -- I'd have to be doing the SAME Goddamn thing!

Anyway I guess it was the the 2nd one(in the '80's) -- we were on the bus heading to our parking spot when saw 2 guys with a big banner/or sign saying

"Just Two Regular Guys For CHOICE"
I got all teary-eyed. It was great!

As for my comment/s.

This is the 21st Century, people!!!

We Women are NOT your Second-(or Third-) Class "Broodmares" to be popping out babies at your behest, or whim.

Even ONE Woman who is living a life that (I hope she had some or more say in) she created with Family, Friends, who love and care for her and she them and with people who may depend on her already; with Interests, that she has cultivated, and maybe Causes she devotes herself to : OUTWEIGHS the life a a fetus who has yet to develope these things.

Better/SAFER Contraception = way less abortions!
INCLUDING Better Condoms!

And phoo on my (ex)Catholic Church for their broodmarish attitude of no contraception except the rythym method. And YAY for the s women who've gone ahead and IGNORED that Medieval strategy!

(The Catholic Church does do some very good tgings, but I venhemently oppose many of their attitudes towards women.

 

[Dalton]

Let me ask you: how do you feel about abortions for people who have been raped or are medically in danger from their pregnancies?

I can think of all kinds of reasons for someone to have an abortion, so I suppose I'm not against abortion. But as yolland pointed out earlier, we all know that fetuses have heartbeats and moves. We also know that if left alone, the fetus would grow into a human being. To me that's the rub. We all know this, but we've decided to disregard it because, well, we like to fuck a lot and don't really want to face the consequences.

If someone came to me and said, "the doctors said that there is a good chance I'm going to die if I have this baby." I would understand entirely why that person had an abortion. If a couple came to me and said, "We're pregnant with multiples, but the doctor said we're probably going to lose them all if we don't abort one of them." I'd say, damn that is a really terrible position to be in. I hope you, your husband and your doctor can come to the best decision.

When I hear of abortions that are simply for convenience: I don't want to be pregnant, I don't want to have a baby, this isn't part of my plan, etc. I'm irritated. To me it seems like the height of selfishness. You obviously put yourself into a position to be pregnant and now that you are someone else has to pay the price? That's bull-shit.

On the flip side of that coin, I don't want to hear one more self-righteous right-winger bleat on and on about how they're pro-life but argue for abstinence only classrooms, not funding birth control and voting to decrease funding to help the poor. That's just as selfish and "head up your own ass" as the other side.

Life is life. Don't want to have a baby? Stop fucking around. Can't do that? Get real good at birth control. This shit is not rocket science.

 

[Dalton]

Also, I believe the argument that being against abortion is someone an offense to women. It's the fucking 21st century. Women can be on birth control. Women can choose not to have sex. Hell, I've been in relationships with women who have chosen not to have sex. Women can choose to be in relationship with other women.

If abortions are happening because somehow, somewhere women are being forced into social constructs that are unfair, let's attack that issue. I'm all for it. Free the women. But please let's stop with the bullshit, "It's a woman's body, she can choose to do with it what she'd like" argument. That's not argument.

 

[Liesje]

Also, I believe the argument that being against abortion is someone an offense to women. It's the fucking 21st century. Women can be on birth control. Women can choose not to have sex. Hell, I've been in relationships with women who have chosen not to have sex. Women can choose to be in relationship with other women.

If abortions are happening because somehow, somewhere women are being forced into social constructs that are unfair, let's attack that issue. I'm all for it. Free the women. But please let's stop with the bullshit, "It's a woman's body, she can choose to do with it what she'd like" argument. That's not argument.

Well, for me the issue is much larger than abortions as a form of birth control and whether we are OK with that or not. Personally, I am pro-choice and would never have an abortion as a means of birth control, but as far as how I vote, I am just not OK with *anyone* man, woman or otherwise attempting to pass legislation on what procedures are available to fellow citizens, especially when that legislation seems driven by personal morals and religious convictions. To me, this is just a matter of precedent and "slippery slope". We can go around in circles with various scenarios and anecdotal evidence about different birth defects and risky pregnancies but as far as how I vote, I will always feel that those decisions are only to be made between me, my family and *my* doctors. It's just no one else's business, plain and simple.

 

[Dalton]

Well, for me the issue is much larger than abortions as a form of birth control and whether we are OK with that or not. Personally, I am pro-choice and would never have an abortion as a means of birth control, but as far as how I vote, I am just not OK with *anyone* man, woman or otherwise attempting to pass legislation on what procedures are available to fellow citizens, especially when that legislation seems driven by personal morals and religious convictions. To me, this is just a matter of precedent and "slippery slope". We can go around in circles with various scenarios and anecdotal evidence about different birth defects and risky pregnancies but as far as how I vote, I will always feel that those decisions are only to be made between me, my family and *my* doctors. It's just no one else's business, plain and simple.

Not that you're looking for my approval, but I think that's a fine position. I hate the "slippery slope" argument, but I see what you're saying. In principal, I'm all for the government offering services when it where it can. I'm opposed to the government telling me or others what to do. That being said, I believe we have created an abortion society that, if we were able to remove all the religious jargon and just look at the issue, we should be working to change.

It bothers me, especially when I hear it come from non-religious people (sadly, I've written most of them off in this discussion), that we can admit that this fetus is a "person" and yet we're so flippant at saying we can choose to dispose of it if at our convenience. The argument that the woman who is pregnant is more important than the fetus simply doesn't hold water for me. So, I'm all for reform in the abortion laws, mandated sex education and access to contraceptives.

And for dazzled, if I have somehow completely misread the times in which we live and women are still being forced into a position as "broodmares", then I'm all for attacking that issue head on.

 

[PhilsFan]

I can think of all kinds of reasons for someone to have an abortion, so I suppose I'm not against abortion. But as yolland pointed out earlier, we all know that fetuses have heartbeats and moves. We also know that if left alone, the fetus would grow into a human being. To me that's the rub. We all know this, but we've decided to disregard it because, well, we like to fuck a lot and don't really want to face the consequences.

If someone came to me and said, "the doctors said that there is a good chance I'm going to die if I have this baby." I would understand entirely why that person had an abortion. If a couple came to me and said, "We're pregnant with multiples, but the doctor said we're probably going to lose them all if we don't abort one of them." I'd say, damn that is a really terrible position to be in. I hope you, your husband and your doctor can come to the best decision.

When I hear of abortions that are simply for convenience: I don't want to be pregnant, I don't want to have a baby, this isn't part of my plan, etc. I'm irritated. To me it seems like the height of selfishness. You obviously put yourself into a position to be pregnant and now that you are someone else has to pay the price? That's bull-shit.

On the flip side of that coin, I don't want to hear one more self-righteous right-winger bleat on and on about how they're pro-life but argue for abstinence only classrooms, not funding birth control and voting to decrease funding to help the poor. That's just as selfish and "head up your own ass" as the other side.

Life is life. Don't want to have a baby? Stop fucking around. Can't do that? Get real good at birth control. This shit is not rocket science.

Here's my issue with that: what if a woman gets raped and gets pregnant? What do you do with that? If you say you think she should be forced to keep it, I think that's awful. She didn't put herself into a position where she should have been ready for it. It might fuck with her work. It might fuck with her health. It'll definitely fuck with her life for nine months. And that's not fair.

If you say you think rape victims should be allowed abortions, then how do you figure that out? Do you just take her word for it? Do you force her to go through a trial? How long will it take before the trial leaks into her third trimester? It's so messy.

I understand that people who get abortions for convenience are the real problem you have with it. I get it. It's irresponsible. But I think there are too many problems with making abortions illegal that you have to let them be legal, despite that fact. Abortions are going down in number, aren't they?

 

[Dalton]

Oh I'm not claiming that I have any of this figured out. I don't. I'm merely commenting on what I see as a real problem in this country. I'm not, nor have I ever been, a religious person. But my thought is that once you strip away all the religious argumentation that we're all pushing back against, we all feel that abortion is a last resort. The problem is that I don't believe it is anymore.

So, I agree with you. This gets messy really fast. Should a woman who has been raped have access to a hassle free abortion? Yes. Should we be trying to weed out those people who are using it as the last line of birth control? Yes. How do we do it? How the hell should I know, I spend a lot of time on the interwebs.

 

[Dalton]

Actually I just did a little google work on this incredibly complex issue and I think I've come to the first step of a solution.

I think most of us would agree that a large percentage of "unwanted abortions" are occurring amongst young adults who get pregnant. So it would be helpful for us all to keep these youngsters unpregnant. But how do we do that? Abstinence doesn't work for most of them. Birth control can fail. Pulling out is fun, but messy. What to do. What to do! (here's where my research comes in) According to the Kinsey Institute, the rate of or oral sex received and given by both men and women drop after they are married (I'm assuming the same can be said for long term, non-married couples). We need to start teaching the hell out of that in sex ed. Once a kid realizes that their opportunity for earth shattering oral sex has a limited shelf life, they're going to want to spend more time on that. If we partner that news with really good instruction on how to get down, you know, down below, we'll have solved most of the problem!

 

[Dalton]

Shit, forget that. Did you guys know that giving oral sex to someone with HPV leads to oral cancer?

Nothing is fun anymore.

 

[PhilsFan]

I'm amazed that the government has allowed Trojan to exist as a monopoly.

 

[Irvine511]

Also, I believe the argument that being against abortion is someone an offense to women. It's the fucking 21st century. Women can be on birth control. Women can choose not to have sex. Hell, I've been in relationships with women who have chosen not to have sex. Women can choose to be in relationship with other women.

can men choose to wear condoms?

 

[Dalton]

Irvine, you're gay. I think it's been decided that you can't choose anything.

 

[Irvine511]

I understand that people who get abortions for convenience are the real problem you have with it. I get it. It's irresponsible.

i have a problem with viewing abortion as a "convenience" -- no woman makes that decision lightly as if she's ordering a milkshake.

except this one:

I'm Totally Psyched About This Abortion!

By Caroline Weber
April 28, 1999 | ISSUE 35•16

I know, I know, I've heard all the arguments: Abortion stops a beating heart. It's a child, not a choice. Every life is precious. Well, I don't care what the pro-lifers say... I am totally psyched for this abortion!

Like I said, my decision to terminate my pregnancy isn't for lack of hearing the opposing view. I'm exposed to pro-life messages all the time—on billboards, in magazines and on television. And I certainly didn't miss that angry crowd of picketers shouting at me as I was happily skipping to the women's health clinic to make the appointment for my big day. Those pro-life activists made it pretty clear that, unlike me, they actually think abortion is bad and to be avoided. Are they nuts? Abortion is the best!

As I pushed my way through the crowd, one of the picketers yelled, "How could you do this? How could you kill a child?" What? It's more like, "How could I wait this long?" It wasn't until now that I was lucky enough to be pregnant with a child I had no means to support. I tell you, for a long time, I thought it would never happen to me!

So, to all of you pro-lifers who are trying to rain on my parade, keep it to yourself, because I don't have the time for that kind of negativity. I've got an abortion to plan, and I just know it's going to be the best non-anesthetized invasive uterine surgery ever!

The funny thing is, I actually have the pro-life movement to thank for this opportunity. If my HMO wouldn't have bowed to their pressure not to cover oral contraceptives, I never would've gotten pregnant in the first place. Then what would I be doing a week from Thursday? I'll tell you what I wouldn't be doing: going to an awesome abortion clinic where I'll be the center of attention from the minute I put my feet up in those stirrups. I wouldn't be looking forward to induced dilation of my cervical opening and suctioning of my uterus, either. And I sure as heck wouldn't get the chance to have a doctor insert a metal instrument into my womb to dislodge tissue from my uterine wall!

I seriously cannot wait for all the hemorrhaging and the uterine contractions. This abortion is going to be so amazing. I'm definitely taking lots of pictures so I can remember every last detail of the whole experience for years to come and share my great memories with all of my friends, family and co-workers. What an easy decision this was!

I realize there are people who will criticize me, calling me selfish and immature because I took "the easy way out." I realize there are those who will condemn me to hell for what I'm about to do. Well, I don't care what they say: It's worth it for all the fun and laughs I'm going to have at the clinic. So listen up, world: I'm pro-abortion... and I love it! See you at my post-abortion party, everybody!

 

[mama cass]

Shit, forget that. Did you guys know that giving oral sex to someone with HPV leads to oral cancer?

Nothing is fun anymore.

yep, that's getting to be a huge problem now... the rate of oral cancer has rocketed lately... another reason for pushing the HPV vaccine... (being the same virus that causes cervical cancer)

 

[Irvine511]

Irvine, you're gay. I think it's been decided that you can't choose anything.

au contraire. i can choose to pitch or catch.

 

[Dalton]

au contraire. i can choose to pitch or catch.

I lol'd.

 

[Irvine511]

and either way, no abortions! ever!

 

[Dalton]

yep, that's getting to be a huge problem now... the rate of oral cancer has rocketed lately... another reason for pushing the HPV vaccine... (being the same virus that causes cervical cancer)

Push it? I'm going to give it out next year for Halloween. Oral sex leads to oral cancer? Seriously, I've never heard of anything so sad.

 

[Dalton]

and either way, no abortions! ever!

Somehow I'm guessing that this solution does not come up at a lot of religious rallies. Maybe we'll get you on the docket somehow. You can speak right after Huckabee and Palin.


BTW - what was your point about men wearing condoms?

 

[mama cass]

women will always need/resort to abortion whether it's legal or not... do the pro-lifers really want to go down that route (i.e. backstreet abortion, unsafe procedures) again?

abortions are going to happen anyway whether people like it or not...

 

[Dalton]

women will always need/resort to abortion whether it's legal or not... do the pro-lifers really want to go down that route (i.e. backstreet abortion, unsafe procedures) again?

abortions are going to happen anyway whether people like it or not...

That's an interesting point. Do we have any idea how many backstreet abortions (which was their best record btw) were happening before it was legalized?

 

[Irvine511]

BTW - what was your point about men wearing condoms?

that women have to bear the consequences of what men put there to begin with. i found your earlier framing of the issue to be kind of sexist, honestly, that it's in the woman's hands whether she gets pregnant or not.

 

[Dalton]

that women have to bear the consequences of what men put there to begin with. i found your earlier framing of the issue to be kind of sexist, honestly, that it's in the woman's hands whether she gets pregnant or not.

Oh I'm not absolving men of their responsibility or obligations to both mother and child. I was merely framing my argument to a specific line of reasoning centered around a woman's choice. I'm all for women being free to choose their paths in live unencumbered by a patristic society. I'd fight to the end for that. I do not see fighting for a woman's right to an abortion (of convenience) as part of that, however.

 

[mama cass]

Push it? I'm going to give it out next year for Halloween. Oral sex leads to oral cancer? Seriously, I've never heard of anything so sad.

only if a person is infected, obviously, like anything else...

 

[Dalton]

only if a person is infected, obviously, like anything else...

Is there an app for that?

 

[Dalton]

Alright folks, I'm heading out to a benefit.

To summarize: I like the sex. I think you need to take responsibility for liking the sex (yes Irv, the baby-daddies too). I'm prowoman, probaby, and procommunity rallying around people when they're in a tough spot and helping them through.

And look, I've been on this board long enough for you all to know I'm a total asshole, so this shouldn't come off as me tooting my own horn, but the Mrs. and I have had several young women come and live with us while the were pregnant or right after they had their baby because they didn't have any where else to go. We helped them make it through that stage of their life and get their feet back under them. I understand that, with men bailing all the time, women often find themselves in overwhelming circumstances, but those circumstances don't have to be death sentences for the woman or the child.

Alright, if you're smart at all you will completely disregard everything that I've said in this thread. I have no idea what I'm talking about most of the time. Except that Irvine is gay. That's totally true.

 

[Liesje]

I was merely framing my argument to a specific line of reasoning centered around a woman's choice. [...] I do not see fighting for a woman's right to an abortion (of convenience) as part of that, however.

And I don't see fighting for it to be the business of anyone else. For me it's not so much about my choice as a woman but my choice as no one else besides me and my family and doctors are privy to my circumstance and thus have no business weighing in on matters related to my health or the health of my unborn child. I would feel the exact same if this were a debate about men being circumcised or getting vasectomies any analogy relating to male reproduction or sexuality. Why is our society so obsessed with everyone else's bodies?

I guess I'm just looking at this issue with a larger scope that just women getting abortions as a form of birth control so I can't really address your other comments except to say that I personally do not agree with abortions as a form of birth control and would never use it as such but that's my own decision and has no bearing on anyone else or their circumstance.

 

[PhilsFan]

Despite being pro-choice, I don't think it's at all correct to say vasectomies are the same as abortions.