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Old 04-17-2011, 01:25 AM   #181
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
When my mother got pregnant with me, her boyfriend didn't have a job, and she was a waitress at some restaraunt, meaning very little money. She didn't think he was going to stay, (he did, although it didn't matter, because he died a few years later ) so she didn't know what to do. She went to Planned Parenthood, and basically given her situation they told her to abort abort abort. They offered no alternatives, and they basically said that was her only viable option.

She said she almost did it, but when she went to a pregnancy center and saw the ultrasound, and that was it for her. After she had me she became a teacher and our situation has been more or less fine. She's also been pro-life ever since.

Just my story, I'm not suggesting that gives me a greater understanding of the subject, but it does affect me emotionally.
And that only makes sense; clearly the conclusion she drew from her experience was something she found it important to share with you, as was true with my mother as well. In her case, her conclusion was (obviously) not that everyone in the situation she'd been in should have an abortion; just that the fact that it was ultimately her decision was morally vital. Having had three children now myself, I appreciate what that right is worth and what it means more than ever. But any woman who's ever had a functioning reproductive system will have thought about it, in the next most intimate way one can, whatever the conclusions drawn.

I'm not in a position to evaluate how representative your mother's experience with Planned Parenthood counseling was. I will say though that if I were in a situation like hers, or like my own mother's situation, I wouldn't regard any reproductive health services clinic's, nor pregnancy care center's, "counsel" as worth any more than the proverbial bucket of warm spit. Because ultimately the decision at hand is, Am I physically, emotionally, and socially able to undertake a change of this magnitude right now--and then the same questions about the possibility of abortion. A stranger can't help you find honest answers to those questions, and even friends' and relatives' assessments will be limited by the simple fact that they're not you and won't own the consequences of the decision either way. Financially speaking, on the other hand, where there's a will there's usually a way (and here pregnancy counseling can be very helpful)--though it may not entail being able to keep your baby after going through all that, which for many women may make the answer to the former questions a No.

I'm very sorry about your father.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:32 AM   #182
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nathan: if you truly believe in the "legal" part, I don't understand why you also use language like "murdering babies." If you literally consider abortion morally equivalent to homicide, it makes no sense to me to prefer it be legal for any reason whatsoever.
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Old 04-17-2011, 11:18 AM   #183
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Just to share, just because:

For the last month or so, there's been a small handful of protestors outside a PP clinic not far from where I live. I drive by if I'm going to Target.

I had no idea there was even a PP clinic there, and I've been hearing from people who were in the same boat. And some have even made the point to go up to the protestors and tell them "Hey, thanks for letting me know the clinic was here! I'm going to go in and make a donation."

Ha.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:16 PM   #184
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Originally Posted by yolland View Post
nathan: if you truly believe in the "legal" part, I don't understand why you also use language like "murdering babies." If you literally consider abortion morally equivalent to homicide, it makes no sense to me to prefer it be legal for any reason whatsoever.
I myself referred to such thinking as overly simplistic and grossly reductionist. I am strongly and personally pro-life, but I'm well-aware of the fact that there are necessary evils in the world, which is how I tend to think of abortion, as well as other things like war. To me, such atrocities should not be ruled illegal, because they are necessary at times, but they should be regulated very carefully.
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Old 04-17-2011, 03:08 PM   #185
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do you really think we're dealing with equivalents here?
No. Since Gosnell willingly broke laws (performing illegal late-term abortions by lying to his patients about how far along their pregnancies were, as well as falsely presenting himself as a licensed practitioner, which he wasn't) and was responsible for the deaths of several patients, and his colleagues were unwilling to say anything, and Dr. Rutland was responsible for repeated deaths as well, which were also covered up, I actually don't. Misinformation is a problem; so is the willful breaking of laws and death of patients by abortion practitioners. I would argue that the latter is a bigger problem than the former, but my position is different than yours, which I understand.

Again, both sides of the debate -- and those who stand to profit from their positions -- should be watched very carefully.
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Old 04-17-2011, 05:28 PM   #186
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It's no surprise that pro-choice groups are going to question crisis pregnancy tactics, any more than pro-life groups are going to question abortion providers. I'm of the mind that both deserve to be called out.
I wasn't aware that there are laws in this country that mandate that pregnant women must visit a pro-choice group before deciding to go ahead with the pregnancy.

One here deserves to get called out because only one is being imposed on the female populace in several states.
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Old 04-17-2011, 07:33 PM   #187
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One here deserves to get called out because only one is being imposed on the female populace in several states.
And the other here deserves to get called out because there have been multiple deaths (and laws broken) in several states.
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Old 04-17-2011, 07:51 PM   #188
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And the other here deserves to get called out because there have been multiple deaths (and laws broken) in several states.
Which has absolutely nothing to do with the proposed legislation. It's a distraction so that we can pose a false equivalence in an unrelated matter. So instead of discussing restrictive abortion laws that have now been passed by a number of states and that are in the process of being passed by others, we're reduced to "well sure that's bad but what's JUST as bad or WORSE is ____."

Illegitimate or illegal practices of physicians who perform abortions which you are discussing ARE NOT RELATED to whether it is good medical policy or just right-wing religious ideology to force a pregnant woman who is contemplating abortion to attend at a CPC where she will have to watch fetal images with "Hi Mommy!!" scrawling across the screen while being told that all her friends will abandon her once she murders her baby.

Your attempt to conflate the two is just a means of killing a debate in which you've taken a position that is in my view inaccurate and has been proven so. Even after I posted the Congressional report, you conveniently ignored it and chose to only comment on the Planned Parenthood study, and immediately labeled it as biased. So to be honest, I don't think that you're discussing this in good faith; several of the rest of us aren't either but at least we're admitting it from the outset rather than pretending to be objective and then equivocating.
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Old 04-17-2011, 10:50 PM   #189
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It's a distraction so that we can pose a false equivalence in an unrelated matter.

Illegitimate or illegal practices of physicians who perform abortions which you are discussing ARE NOT RELATED to whether it is good medical policy


well stated. i couldn't improve on this.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:33 PM   #190
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Which has absolutely nothing to do with the proposed legislation.
I didn't realize that the proposed legislation was the topic of this thread. If we are now going to say that this thread is exclusively about the proposed cut to federal funding for Planned Parenthood, that's fine, but this conversation was framed in the context of a larger discussion. (And if so, the thread should probably be closed, since that issue is over and done with.)

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Illegitimate or illegal practices of physicians who perform abortions which you are discussing ARE NOT RELATED to whether it is good medical policy
When we're dealing with cases of death and malpractice, I would argue the opposite -- particularly when the decisive element of good medical policy is (or should be) the lives of the patients who are subject to such policy.

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Your attempt to conflate the two is just a means of killing a debate in which you've taken a position that is in my view inaccurate and has been proven so.
I'm not sure which position you're referring to that in your view has been proven inaccurate -- my belief that abortion should be safe, legal and rare, or my belief that abortion providers should be regulated (particularly those who receive funding from the federal government)?

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Even after I posted the Congressional report, you conveniently ignored it...
On the contrary -- I actually said any pro-life group which is putting out false or misleading information should be called out. This includes CPCs. Since they receive funding from the federal government, they should be (and are, given the study released in 06) accountable to the federal government. ...As should Planned Parenthood.

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...and chose to only comment on the Planned Parenthood study, and immediately labeled it as biased.
From the article:
Quote:
NARAL's Virginia chapter published a report this year documenting a yearlong undercover investigation
Numbers from a report published by NARAL have about as much credence with me as numbers from the National Right to Life Committee have with anyone on this board. And rightly so.

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at least we're admitting it from the outset rather than pretending to be objective and then equivocating.
Can one objectively say that abortion is necessary in some cases, while at the same time grieve its necessity (and look with a critical eye on those who would profit from it)? Both sides have legitimate -- and illegitimate -- points to make, and there can be positive and negative equivocations.

I think that the fence where I sit on this is probably indicative of where a lot of Americans sit; uncomfortable with the subject, but willing to see both sides of the issue. I don't have to endorse a butcher like Kermit Gosnell to understand that abortions are at times a necessity, and I don't have to endorse anti-abortionists who resort to violence to make their point, to understand their passion.

And I sure as hell don't have to endorse the choice made by a nineteen year old girl who weeps because she's not sure she made the right choice and is wracked by guilt, to sit with her and hold her hand.
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Old 04-18-2011, 12:46 PM   #191
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I'll be honest. It sounds to me like several posters are determined to paint nathan into a corner.

He's stated that he thinks abortion should be safe, legal, and rare and it appears that a lot of us just want to outright deny that he really believes that and afix a more suitably ugly set of beliefs to him instead.

I don't see how that helps anything.
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Old 04-18-2011, 01:27 PM   #192
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^ It is a longstanding irony of these threads that only very rarely does any participant get around to spelling out precisely what he or she thinks the legal status of abortion should actually be (in terms of trimester limits, alleged circumstances of conception, the pregnant woman's present situation, criminal penalties, etc.). And that may be because most don't have a "precisely" worked out in their minds when it comes down to it. But it does tend to lead to arguing as if one side believes abortion should be available completely unrestricted throughout the entire pregnancy, whereas the other believes abortion should be treated by courts as homicide unless the mother's life is in immediate physical danger...the most extreme positions, in other words, which few posters actually hold. So we wind up arguing emotional loyalties perhaps more than anything else.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:02 PM   #193
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But it does tend to lead to arguing as if one side believes abortion should be available completely unrestricted throughout the entire pregnancy.
This is my "side". How CAN we realistically spell out under which conditions it is "legal" and which it is not? I feel the same as I've always felt about it....it's really up to the parents and their doctors.

I personally am not comfortable with abortions as birth control but I really believe that the larger issue in this country is sex ed and birth control in general. I think we'd see less abortions if we had more comprehensive sex ed, not by restricting abortions.
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Old 04-18-2011, 03:13 PM   #194
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i'm pro-choice, but think trimester limits are essential, like here in France/UK...

a late-term abortion would be incredibly traumatic all round if left completely unrestricted...
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Old 04-18-2011, 05:15 PM   #195
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He's stated that he thinks abortion should be safe, legal, and rare and it appears that a lot of us just want to outright deny that he really believes that and afix a more suitably ugly set of beliefs to him instead.
He has, at the same time, promoted this idea that abortion should be regulated in such a manner as to impose on a woman, by means of a state mandate, the obligation for a wait period and a visit with an organization which many of us find extremely questionable if not outright offensive. Because as has been pointed out aptly by a number of people, such standards are not imposed on other surgical procedures which come with significant medical risks.

Yes, nathan comes across as polite and his baseline doesn't seem unreasonable but I honestly tell you that I find his views on how this should be regulated and what women should be subject to, unpalatable and arguably not in the mainstream (as much as he likes to paint them as such).
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