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Old 04-16-2011, 04:13 PM   #166
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(
And as far as the waiting period goes, there are not a lot of abortion providers in this country (I posted a link discussing this back on the 2nd or 3rd page). If you can find one in your town where the doctor is there and available, the weight probably won't have ill effect on you. If I have to drive across the state because there's only one provider in the state, that's gas money, probably a hotel for a night, and maybe taking time off from work. Maybe I work part time and can barely afford the gas money to get there, much less the abortion itself. If I'm lucky to even have a car.

Then you get there, and they tell you to come back in three days. That's more time off work. And more money to stay extra nights in a hotel, or drive back across the state, and maybe I'll lose my job for having to take more than a day off. And then by the time the third day rolls around, maybe that doctor isn't available anymore. Maybe she's flown off to another center to face another woman and tell her to come back in three days.


this is rather deftly put, and it is absolutely a situation that many women face in the bigger, squarer, less populated, vast American states in the midwest and south. we're not even so much talking about a woman's right to choose as we are talking about a poor woman's right to choose. the reason why Planned Parenthood performs so many abortions is because it is by far the cheapest available option for women with little or no health care. rich women will always -- and have always -- found ways to have abortions, and also have the luxury of affording another child if they should so choose. making abortion illegal will do nothing to prevent women of means from seeking whatever they choose, whenever they choose.

and, nathan, i would love to hear what steps and recommendations you have for poor women who have babies. what are some of the ways you are advocating for the rights and health of new mothers and their infants? after all, the child is just as important after birth as it was before, so i'd love to know how opponents of abortion express their concerns for all life, all children, and all women -- not just what's growing in the womb.
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:25 PM   #167
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... the WEIGHT probably won't have ill effect on you.
Nice typo, cori.

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And, just to make it clear, if any place qualifies as a gulag, it's this one -- a place where abortions were cheap, unregulated, and incredibly dangerous, albeit legal..
That is just the most horrific story. I wonder how many of those poor women (and while I don't mean that literally, I bet it does still apply literally) went to this butcher because they felt they had no better options to help them? Or no other options they could afford?

That guy should absolutely have his license taken away (or was he not licensed? I'm forgetting some of the details), and should be charged with whatever possible for his awful treatment of his "patients."

But by no means should this situation be used as an argument against abortion. Restricting abortions would lead to more stories like this, not fewer.
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Old 04-16-2011, 04:50 PM   #168
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And hey, whaddya know. I guess I am still capable of discussing it calmly and politely, despite what I said yesterday.

I guess I just need to learn to not post when I feel myself getting hot in the face and just stick with yelling at the computer screen until I actually feel like I can type calmly without devolving into that little internet gif of the guy pounding himself bloody on the keyboard.
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Old 04-16-2011, 05:07 PM   #169
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nathan, i would love to hear what steps and recommendations you have for poor women who have babies. what are some of the ways you are advocating for the rights and health of new mothers and their infants? after all, the child is just as important after birth as it was before, so i'd love to know how opponents of abortion express their concerns for all life, all children, and all women -- not just what's growing in the womb.
I think it's morally reprehensible that many pro-lifers are opposed to helping women deal with issues they will face as single mothers. It feels almost punitive, and if we're not going to mandate quality of life scenarios for the most vulnerable, I don't see what the point is. I've been fortunate to be a part of churches that take an active hand in inner-city work -- doing job training, offering financial assistance, etc -- but I realize that I'm in the minority on that.

Off to my daughter's birthday party.
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Old 04-16-2011, 05:32 PM   #170
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I've been fortunate to be a part of churches that take an active hand in inner-city work -- doing job training, offering financial assistance, etc -- but I realize that I'm in the minority on that.


i was hoping you'd say this. i do realize that there are pro-lifers who actually do "put their money where there mouth is," so to speak, and i think it's great that such organizations are out there. personally, i find it tragic that economic circumstances and the lack of a social safety net (one that the GOP seems intent on burning to the ground) force some women to choose to have an abortion. as i've said earlier, this is often an economic issue as much as any other, and a truly pro-child, pro-woman society seeks to address these injustices on all levels. i'd much rather see the anti-abortion folks become truly pro-life, and not just anti-choice, by focusing their energy in these areas rather than attempt to make abortion illegal.

abortion is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.



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Off to my daughter's birthday party.

happy birthday to her.
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Old 04-16-2011, 05:37 PM   #171
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...feticide in India is clearly more than just a personal problem, with huge socioeconomic ramifications that are just now being felt.
Yes, sex ratio skew on that scale can unquestionably cause social problems, which is why India's laws against informing pregnant women and their families of the fetus' sex are more than justified, inadequate though they are to address the realities of a vast black market in ultrasounds. For decades before the Indian economist Amartya Sen first called attention to India's widespread sex-selective abortion problem in the late 1980s, India already had a well-known widespread female infanticide problem, and indeed they still do among the poor. Legislation alone won't even come close to solving these problems, nor the various schemes the Indian government has implemented over the past decade to combat them (paying parents in designated high-skew areas like Punjab to keep, vaccinate and educate girls; a network of unwanted-girl-baby dropoff centers; working in tandem with selected leaders from India's various religious communities to instruct their followers that girls have equal value in God's eyes and must be treated as such). Indeed, if the longstanding laws against dowry were meaningfully enforceable, that alone would fix most of the problem by itself.

I've personally seen poorer Indian families bankrupt themselves paying for dowries and weddings for their daughters, and it's heartbreaking. Needless to say, Indian parents love the daughters they do have as dearly as they love their sons; that's not the problem. The problem is a traditional social structure, found across much of East and South Asia, where sons alone owe you support in old age, keep whatever land you have in your family, and bring you new household wealth in the form of daughters-in-law, who come with dowries, move into your house and work for you, and grow your family. Logistically speaking, it's not a bad system in an agrarian society where mutual interdependence runs high, but the stigma that accrues to girls (and childless widows, and infertile women) has awful consequences which endure into modern, middle-class urbanized family lives.

This situation really doesn't map well at all onto the parameters of the abortion rights debate in the United States.
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And, just to make it clear, if any place qualifies as a gulag, it's this one -- a place where abortions were cheap, unregulated, and incredibly dangerous, albeit legal. ...
There's a whole world of obstetrics malpractice horror stories waiting to be dipped into, too...It really is not relevant to the debate. In any case, the way our country ghettoizes abortion provision in freestanding abortion clinics rather than hospitals, where all abortions are performed in most of the world, virtually guarantees such incidences.
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Pregnancy care centers do indeed offer information about abortion (though they don't generally offer referrals), as one of a host of options when it comes to dealing with an unwanted pregnancy.
They acknowledge that abortion is an option because they have to, and they often offer post-abortion counseling (as do numerous pro-choice organizations, which most abortion providers offer referrals to). That's about it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crisis_pregnancy_center
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Crisis pregnancy centers (CPCs), also known as pregnancy resource centers, are non-profit organizations established to counsel women against having abortion. CPCs are typically run by pro-life Christians according to a conservative Christian philosophy, and often operate under the auspices of one of three groups: Care Net, Heartbeat International, and Birthright International. The National Institute of Family and Life Advocates (NIFLA) was formed to provide legal advice to American CPCs.

There are over 4000 CPCs in the United States, as compared with well under 750 abortion clinics...At least 20 US States provide funding for CPCs.

...While CPCs often look like abortion clinics and are intentionally located near them, the overwhelming majority are not legally licensed as medical clinics and do not offer medical services. Most CPCs offer free pregnancy tests, often over-the-counter ones, and there is a movement towards obtaining medical clinic status, largely so that more CPCs may offer sonograms in an attempt to convince women to carry their pregnancies to term. They may also provide STD screening, adoption referrals, religious counseling, financial assistance, prenatal services, child-rearing resources and other services.
All of which are useful and important services to offer interested mothers-to-be, but state-mandated visits to CPCs as a condition of obtaining an abortion--as if understanding the potential medical consequences of abortion required understanding how the adoption process works, or what social services for pregnancy support are out there--is unmistakably a way of saying, "And before we'll allow you to exercise this right, we require you to sit through our reminders of why you shouldn't actually have it to begin with." Either accept the principle that all rights-bearing subjects of law have the same fundamental claim to bodily autonomy as all others, barring mental incapacity to exercise it, or don't accept it. State-mandated "options" counseling is coercion.
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Nathan, BVS, Irvine, and a few others seem to be the only ones who are able to rationally discuss this.
I don't think that's fair. Just because someone has stronger personal feelings than most on some particular issue, abortion or race or freedom of religion or whatever, doesn't mean they can't think rationally about it. If someone can't debate, say, whether some politician's comment was racist without screaming that their opponents are disgusting cross-burning neanderthals, yes, that's irrational, but the general presence of agitation or indignation or sarcasm in someone's tone doesn't tell you their reasoning is inferior to yours. It just tells you this topic has strong personal import for them. A person who approaches discussion with an open heart as well as an open mind should be able to work with that situation.
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It affects me too.


I was almost aborted.
As was I; my mother had a large uterine tumor throughout her pregnancy, which could potentially have caused her fatal hemorrhaging and, in her doctors' assessment, made it considerably more likely than not that she'd miscarry or have a stillbirth anyway. She never held that over my head though, nor should she have, and for my part I've never been troubled by the thought that she seriously considered it. People are precious to each other because each of us is precious to his or her own self first, and in engaging with others we find the same in them, at least when our consciences are working right. That recognition is the basis for all concepts of justice and liberty, not legal fictions about the inalienable rights of individuals, which don't objectively speaking exist at all.

Being a woman and a mother of three does inform my perspective on abortion. Owing my own existence in large part to one woman's will to bring me into the world, a condition I share with everyone else on the planet, does not.
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Old 04-16-2011, 05:40 PM   #172
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abortion is a symptom of a problem, not the problem itself.
Just in case some may have poor vision ^
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Old 04-16-2011, 05:43 PM   #173
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My mom, surprisingly, is pro-choice.

I say 'surprisingly' because in everything else (that I know of), she is staunchly right-wing, christian conservative.

She's a retired OB nurse, and spent the better part of the last 40 years bringing babies into this world.

But she's pro-choice, because she doesn't think the government should have any say in the matter.

It's pretty much the only political or controversial thing we agree on. Ha.
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Old 04-16-2011, 07:06 PM   #174
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You're about as likely to find a Pregnancy Gulag at the pregnancy care centers I've had experience with as you are to find a death panel setting up shop at the White House. Pregnancy care centers do indeed offer information about abortion (though they don't generally offer referrals), as one of a host of options when it comes to dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. I've always been taught that the best choices are well-informed ones.

But hey -- Death Panels! Pregnancy Gulags! War on Women! War on Babies! -- the truth is much less scandalous than the rhetoric...
That's not my understanding of what pregnancy centers do - it is more in line with what yolland posted.

And for all your outrage about martha's post, you sure fly off the handle with reactionary, inflammatory language at about the same speed.
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Old 04-16-2011, 09:06 PM   #175
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That's not my understanding of what pregnancy centers do - it is more in line with what yolland posted.
My experience is anecdotal, rather than far-reaching, but the ones I've known women to go (on both coasts) to have been -- surprisingly, perhaps, for some on this board -- pro-woman (often run by women), understanding places that do indeed provide information on abortion, as opposed to malevolent halls filled with malicious men waiting to smite any woman who dareth to ask about abortion.

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And for all your outrage about martha's post, you sure fly off the handle with reactionary, inflammatory language at about the same speed.
I'm honestly trying to find anywhere where I expressed outrage in my response or have flown off the handle, to say nothing of attacking other people. (Does "God bless" indicate outrage?) She made a point to equate pregnancy care centers with gulags, and I responded with a link to information about an abortion clinic that has been referred to in the press as a house of horrors. If that's inflammatory...
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:06 PM   #176
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As was I; my mother had a large uterine tumor throughout her pregnancy, which could potentially have caused her fatal hemorrhaging and, in her doctors' assessment, made it considerably more likely than not that she'd miscarry or have a stillbirth anyway. She never held that over my head though, nor should she have, and for my part I've never been troubled by the thought that she seriously considered it. People are precious to each other because each of us is precious to his or her own self first, and in engaging with others we find the same in them, at least when our consciences are working right. That recognition is the basis for all concepts of justice and liberty, not legal fictions about the inalienable rights of individuals, which don't objectively speaking exist at all.

When my mother got pregnant with me, her boyfriend didn't have a job, and she was a waitress at some restaraunt, meaning very little money. She didn't think he was going to stay, (he did, although it didn't matter, because he died a few years later ) so she didn't know what to do. She went to Planned Parenthood, and basically given her situation they told her to abort abort abort. They offered no alternatives, and they basically said that was her only viable option.

She said she almost did it, but when she went to a pregnancy center and saw the ultrasound, and that was it for her. After she had me she became a teacher and our situation has been more or less fine. She's also been pro-life ever since.


Just my story, I'm not suggesting that gives me a greater understanding of the subject, but it does affect me emotionally.
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:37 PM   #177
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My experience is anecdotal, rather than far-reaching
You may then want to consider doing a bit of research to get beyond the anecdotal.

From Time:

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The various strategies the Pregnancy Care Center uses to persuade clients to continue an unintended or unwanted pregnancy are the subject of a provocative new HBO documentary, 12th and Delaware.

...

While 12th and Delaware refrains from taking a position on CPCs, it shows what some view as manipulative practices to influence prospective mothers — describing abortion practices in vivid detail, for example, or writing "Hi, Mommy" on an ultrasound. The center "uses a lot of alarming, scary language and photographs that you don't typically see in a doctor's office," says Grady. "If I was an 18-year-old girl that was in crisis, that would really scare me.

...

NARAL's Virginia chapter published a report this year documenting a yearlong undercover investigation that found that 67% of CPCs in the state gave women some kind of inaccurate or misleading medical information, such as "All condoms have flaws or holes" or "Using a condom does not protect you from AIDS or pregnancy."

...

In counseling pregnant women, CPCs frequently highlight the potential long-term risks of abortion to women's health. Heartbeat International, one of the biggest CPC organizations, points to a 2009 study, co-authored by prestigious National Cancer Institute scholar Dr. Louise Brinton, that indicates induced abortion increases a woman's risk of breast cancer. Pro-choice groups like NARAL counter that there is far from a medical consensus on the subject and accuse the CPCs of cherry-picking from such studies in order to scare women out of getting abortions.
Pro-Choice Groups Question Crisis Pregnancy Center Tactics - TIME
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Old 04-16-2011, 10:43 PM   #178
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Very, very disturbing. "FALSE AND MISLEADING HEALTH INFORMATION PROVIDED BY FEDERALLY FUNDED PREGNANCY RESOURCE CENTERS" - Authored for the US House of Representatives Committee on Government Reform in 2006.

During the investigation, 20 of the 23 centers (87%) provided false or misleading information about the health effects of abortion. Often these federally funded centers grossly misrepresented the medical risks of abortion, telling the callers that having an abortion could increase the risk of breast cancer, result in sterility, and lead to suicide and “post-abortion stress disorder.”

Quote:
Specifically, the report finds:
• The centers provided false and misleading information about a link between abortion and breast cancer. There is a medical consensus that induced abortion does not cause an increased risk of breast cancer. Despite this consensus, eight centers told the caller that having an abortion would in fact increase her risk. One center said that “all abortion causes an increased risk of breast cancer in later years.” Another claimed that research shows a “far greater risk” of breast cancer after an abortion, telling the caller that an abortion would “affect the milk developing in her breasts” and that the risk of breast cancer increased by as much as 80% following an abortion.

The centers provided false and misleading information about the effect of abortion on future fertility. Abortions in the first trimester, using the most common abortion procedure, do not pose an increased risk for future fertility. However, seven centers told the caller that having an abortion could hurt her chances of having children in the future. One center said that damage from abortion could lead to “many miscarriages” or to “permanent damage” so “you wouldn’t be able to carry,” telling the caller that this is “common” and happens “a lot.” Another center said, “In the future you could have trouble conceiving another baby” because of scar tissue, a side effect of abortion that happens to “a lot of women.”

The centers provided false and misleading information about the mental health effects of abortion. Research shows that significant psychological stress after an abortion is no more common than after birth. However, thirteen centers told the caller that the psychological effects of abortion are severe, long-lasting, and common. One center said that the suicide rate in the year after an abortion “goes up by seven times.” Another center said that post-abortion stress suffered by women having abortions is “much like” that seen in soldiers returning from Vietnam and “is something that anyone who’s had an abortion is sure to suffer from.” Other centers said that abortion can cause “guilt, ... sexual problems, ... suicidal ideas, ... drug use, eating disorders,” and “a downward spiral where they lose friends and family members.
Can't link to the PDF, but if you Google the title, you'll find the full report.

So let's not sit here and rest our laurels on anecdotes.
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Old 04-17-2011, 12:35 AM   #179
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You may then want to consider doing a bit of research to get beyond the anecdotal.

Pro-Choice Groups Question Crisis Pregnancy Center Tactics - TIME
It's no surprise that pro-choice groups are going to question crisis pregnancy tactics, any more than pro-life groups are going to question abortion providers. I'm of the mind that both deserve to be called out. Any movement or organization that A) requires funding of any kind and B) is rooted in ideology (of any kind, no matter how noble), needs to have checks and balances.

Planned Parenthood has come under fire for its apparent laxness when it comes to enforcing policies dealing with sex traffickers, and well it should. And abortion "doctors" who operate without ethical or moral considerations for their patients (or who are responsible for their deaths), like Kermit Gosnell in Philadelphia or Andrew Rutland in Anaheim, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. Pro-life organizations who play fast and loose with established medical facts should also be called out, and those pro-life individuals who believe in using violence to make their point should also be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

I believe I've made my position on abortion clear in this thread. Safe, legal and rare is the code I live by; I also believe firmly in strong regulation (I think the issues faced by PP and abortion providers recently bears this out).

So I don't think anyone (in this thread, anyway) is resting on anecdotes or laurels.
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Old 04-17-2011, 01:11 AM   #180
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It's no surprise that pro-choice groups are going to question crisis pregnancy tactics, any more than pro-life groups are going to question abortion providers. I'm of the mind that both deserve to be called out.

do you really think we're dealing with equivalents here?




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Planned Parenthood has come under fire for its apparent laxness when it comes to enforcing policies dealing with sex traffickers, and well it should. And abortion "doctors" who operate without ethical or moral considerations for their patients (or who are responsible for their deaths), like Kermit Gosnell in Philadelphia or Andrew Rutland in Anaheim, should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

so you choose to believe one "candid camera" video and one clinic, that as Yolland has pointed out, would never have existed if abortions were provided in hospitals like they are in the rest of the developed world?

by all means, we want abortion safe, legal, and rare, but i think you're drawing an unfounded equivocation between the pro-choice/pro-life divide, when one side is actually far more open to letting women decide what is best for themselves, and the other wishing to decide what is best for everyone. this seem a bit like the canard of, say, "teach the controversy" when it comes to evolution (there's no controversy), or, say, the "day of dialogue" that's arisen as the Christianist response to the "day of silence" when, in reality, there's not that much "dialogue" to be had on sexual orientation.
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