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Old 04-15-2011, 09:26 PM   #151
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Originally Posted by anitram View Post
First of all, that 72 hour period doesn't even START until after you've had your "pregnancy care center" appointment. So it is a 72-hour wait AT BEST. Why don't you go tell a woman who was raped that she should sit around for 3, 4, 5 days and meditate on just what a wonderful situation she's found herself in.
Actually, it's my understanding that therapists generally advise rape victims not to make ANY decisions in the immediate aftermath of something so horrific, instead offering crisis counseling, helping the victim get tested, and working with law enforcement to bring the assailant to justice.

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Second, the "pregnancy care center" is absolutely outrageous. It is NOT a matter of presenting women with a "second opinion" as you claim is customary with surgeries that carry risk. I'm sorry but that's total bullshit and we all know it. A second medical opinion and medical options are outlined by objective medical professionals, not a cabal of individuals who are set on promoting a certain social view.
You're about as likely to find a Pregnancy Gulag at the pregnancy care centers I've had experience with as you are to find a death panel setting up shop at the White House. Pregnancy care centers do indeed offer information about abortion (though they don't generally offer referrals), as one of a host of options when it comes to dealing with an unwanted pregnancy. I've always been taught that the best choices are well-informed ones.

But hey -- Death Panels! Pregnancy Gulags! War on Women! War on Babies! -- the truth is much less scandalous than the rhetoric...
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Old 04-15-2011, 09:33 PM   #152
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Actually, it's my understanding that therapists generally advise rape victims not to make ANY decisions in the immediate aftermath of something so horrific, instead offering crisis counseling, helping the victim get tested, and working with law enforcement to bring the assailant to justice.
If she's made the decision to abort, it's not the immediate aftermath of the rape.

And whatever the response to martha's posts, she did make a very good point: waiting periods for other medical procedures are not government-imposed.

Regardless of whether you personally think abortion is morally wrong or not, regardless of whether or not I could personally go through with it if ever faced with that decision, it is my decision. The government should not have a say in that decision, and neither does my neighbor.

And as far as the waiting period goes, there are not a lot of abortion providers in this country (I posted a link discussing this back on the 2nd or 3rd page). If you can find one in your town where the doctor is there and available, the weight probably won't have ill effect on you. If I have to drive across the state because there's only one provider in the state, that's gas money, probably a hotel for a night, and maybe taking time off from work. Maybe I work part time and can barely afford the gas money to get there, much less the abortion itself. If I'm lucky to even have a car.

Then you get there, and they tell you to come back in three days. That's more time off work. And more money to stay extra nights in a hotel, or drive back across the state, and maybe I'll lose my job for having to take more than a day off. And then by the time the third day rolls around, maybe that doctor isn't available anymore. Maybe she's flown off to another center to face another woman and tell her to come back in three days.

It is an important, huge decision and should absolutely be given the weighty consideration it deserves. But why is the government telling me how long I have to sit and think about it, and telling the providers what exactly they have to say to me?
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Old 04-15-2011, 09:50 PM   #153
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I want to say something to help out Nathan, but I don't really feel like getting attacked by everyone.

Nathan, BVS, Irvine, and a few others seem to be the only ones who are able to rationally discuss this.
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Old 04-15-2011, 09:57 PM   #154
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It's hard to stay rational when the issue could affect us personally. I thought corianderstem did a good job of articulating that.

I know I have a hard time staying strictly rational when issues of race come up (being black and all). And I've seen Irvine get pretty heated when the issue is gay rights.

The ideal is to keep things calm and rationale and I think most of us on this board aspire to that ideal, but it's simply human nature, that depending on the topic that can be more or less difficult to do.
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Old 04-15-2011, 10:00 PM   #155
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Thanks.

I never seem to learn, because I'm sure I'll get all worked up again. And if I do, I think this time I'll just have to put the thread on ignore, because I don't want to drive myself crazy.

On the plus side, I have to leave now to go somewhere, which is probably a very good thing.

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Old 04-15-2011, 10:08 PM   #156
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Thanks.

I never seem to learn, because I'm sure I'll get all worked up again. And if I do, I think this time I'll just have to put the thread on ignore, because I don't want to drive myself crazy.

On the plus side, I have to leave now to go somewhere, which is probably a very good thing.

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Old 04-16-2011, 11:48 AM   #157
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I won't be back, so you can all breathe easier. nathan's self-righteous, selective responses needed some kind of inappropriate, yet spot-on reply. I thought it was up to One and Done to provide it. He'll dismiss it and not give it a second thought, but I made my points. Like any conservative, the views are smugly held and defended until personal or family necessities will make those viewpoints quietly and privately turn to the other side. I've seen it happen before. It'll keep happening.
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:08 PM   #158
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Originally Posted by The_Pac_Mule View Post
I want to say something to help out Nathan, but I don't really feel like getting attacked by everyone.

Nathan, BVS, Irvine, and a few others seem to be the only ones who are able to rationally discuss this.
Lesson: you don't want to fuck with womens' reproductive rights, to be honest
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Old 04-16-2011, 12:41 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by corianderstem View Post
(Gosh, what a surprise. I'm back.)



If she's made the decision to abort, it's not the immediate aftermath of the rape.

And whatever the response to martha's posts, she did make a very good point: waiting periods for other medical procedures are not government-imposed.

Regardless of whether you personally think abortion is morally wrong or not, regardless of whether or not I could personally go through with it if ever faced with that decision, it is my decision. The government should not have a say in that decision, and neither does my neighbor.

And as far as the waiting period goes, there are not a lot of abortion providers in this country (I posted a link discussing this back on the 2nd or 3rd page). If you can find one in your town where the doctor is there and available, the weight probably won't have ill effect on you. If I have to drive across the state because there's only one provider in the state, that's gas money, probably a hotel for a night, and maybe taking time off from work. Maybe I work part time and can barely afford the gas money to get there, much less the abortion itself. If I'm lucky to even have a car.

Then you get there, and they tell you to come back in three days. That's more time off work. And more money to stay extra nights in a hotel, or drive back across the state, and maybe I'll lose my job for having to take more than a day off. And then by the time the third day rolls around, maybe that doctor isn't available anymore. Maybe she's flown off to another center to face another woman and tell her to come back in three days.

It is an important, huge decision and should absolutely be given the weighty consideration it deserves. But why is the government telling me how long I have to sit and think about it, and telling the providers what exactly they have to say to me?

Well said Cori! I feel passionate about this topic as well, so I haven't posted, but you summed up my thoughts exactly!

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Originally Posted by Canadiens1131 View Post
Lesson: you don't want to fuck with womens' reproductive rights, to be honest
^THIS!! It is very hard to have MEN telling ME what I can or cannot do with my body.
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Old 04-16-2011, 01:26 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by maycocksean View Post
It's hard to stay rational when the issue could affect us personally.
I understand that. At the same time, feticide in India is clearly more than just a personal problem, with huge socioeconomic ramifications that are just now being felt.

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Originally Posted by ryancoke71
It is very hard to have MEN telling ME what I can or cannot do with my body.
For what it's worth, plenty of women are passionate, articulate pro-life proponents too.

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Originally Posted by martha View Post
I made my points.
I'm not sure you realize the point you're making when you liken abortions to penile implants.

And, just to make it clear, if any place qualifies as a gulag, it's this one -- a place where abortions were cheap, unregulated, and incredibly dangerous, albeit legal.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110409/..._investigation

PHILADELPHIA – Women went to Dr. Kermit Gosnell to end their pregnancies. Many came away with life-threatening infections and punctured organs; some still had fetal parts inside them when they arrived at nearby hospitals in dire need of emergency care.

Doctors at the University of Pennsylvania Health System, which operates two hospitals within a mile of Gosnell's squalid abortion clinic in West Philadelphia, saw at least six of these patients — two of whom died. But they largely failed in their legal and ethical duties to report their peer's incompetence, according to a grand jury report.

"We are very troubled that almost all of the doctors who treated these women routinely failed to report a fellow physician who was so obviously endangering his patients," wrote the Philadelphia grand jurors, who recommended a slew of charges against Gosnell and his staff in January.
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Old 04-16-2011, 02:15 PM   #161
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For what it's worth, plenty of women are passionate, articulate pro-life proponents too.

It is worth a lot. They can choose to be pro life and they can choose what they want to do with their bodies. I would like to be able to choose what to do with mine.
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Old 04-16-2011, 02:59 PM   #162
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For what it's worth, plenty of women are passionate, articulate pro-life proponents too.
I wonder if their opinion would change if they were raped
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Old 04-16-2011, 03:10 PM   #163
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Rape is a terrible crime

But breaking God's law is not the correct response

Exodus 20:13 - Thou shall not kill. (murder)
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Old 04-16-2011, 03:28 PM   #164
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It's hard to stay rational when the issue could affect us personally. I thought corianderstem did a good job of articulating that.
It affects me too.


I was almost aborted.
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Old 04-16-2011, 03:36 PM   #165
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It affects me too.


I was almost aborted.
The jury's still out for another 50 years, then. You can play hypotheticals for ever.

Maybe the next Adolf Hitler was aborted as a baby shrimp in 1981. We'll never know.
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