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Old 04-15-2011, 05:07 PM   #136
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Now we're arguing price in the abortion debate? Really?
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:13 PM   #137
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I don't know how to continue to be polite with people who would take away my control of my own body.
If we're going to be grossly reductionist (and overly simplistic) about it, I don't know how to continue to be polite with people who are okay with murdering babies, but I'm trying. There is passion on both sides of the aisle on this issue, and neither is as black and white as the other would like to admit.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:14 PM   #138
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Believe me, I'm not keen on murdering babies and/or fetuses, either. I am all for keeping abortion safe and legal and reducing the need for abortion. But they must remain legal. Making abortion illegal will not stop abortions.

Okay, I'm out now. Have a nice weekend.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:19 PM   #139
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My point is that I don't think it's "horrifying" that, if you want to get an abortion, you need to wait three days, be advised of all your medical options, and pay for it. You have to jump through a lot more hoops and pay a much higher price to get your wisdom teeth out, and generally speaking, abortions carry much more significant physical ramifications, for both the woman and unborn child.

we do need to help women really think through these decisions. they do have a tendency to be emotional about their decision making and not stick to cold, hard facts. often, external factors, like having a headache or being hungry, can cloud their judgment. for example, i had a friend who wanted to get an abortion, but had to wait three days and good thing, too -- it turned out, she was just really thirsty.





(thanks to Sarah Silverman)
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:22 PM   #140
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Here's how it comes down for me.

If you believe that abortion should be allowed for cases of rape, incest or a mother's life is at stake then abortion has to remain legal. PERIOD! There is no testing if the woman was really raped or making her go through a trial before you allow her an abortion, just plain and simple you have to keep it legal.

If you don't believe in abortion for any circumstance then you really have to question your own morality, why is it you hold the unborn above the living?

So now that we know we need to keep abortion legal let's stop having this debate, it's a waste of time. Let's focus on education, information, and doing everything we can to reduce the number of abortions.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:33 PM   #141
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we do need to help women really think through these decisions. they do have a tendency to be emotional about their decision making and not stick to cold, hard facts. often, external factors, like having a headache or being hungry, can cloud their judgment. for example, i had a friend who wanted to get an abortion, but had to wait three days and good thing, too -- it turned out, she was just really thirsty.
Sarcasm aside, generally speaking, when it comes to invasive, surgical procedures for non-life-threatening situations, especially ones that carry an element of risk, second opinions and waiting periods are a fact of life. Should abortion be any different?

I tend to agree with cori about abortions being safe, legal, and rare. I also don't have a problem with procedures to regulate abortions, as well as making sure that women are aware of all their options.

Is that a problem?
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:48 PM   #142
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Sarcasm aside, generally speaking, when it comes to invasive, surgical procedures for non-life-threatening situations, especially ones that carry an element of risk, second opinions and waiting periods are a fact of life. Should abortion be any different?

I tend to agree with cori about abortions being safe, legal, and rare. I also don't have a problem with procedures to regulate abortions, as well as making sure that women are aware of all their options.

Is that a problem?


the problem is thinking at a 3-day waiting period might somehow influence a decision is really patronizing. most women don't take abortion lightly, and they don't decide to have one on a whim that might somehow be altered by an arbitrary deadline.

i also understand and actually find the pro-life position quite coherent -- so long as that pro-life position is against abortion in all circumstances (it's when the exceptions come up that the anti-woman, anti-sex, pro-punishment impulses reveal themselves). however, until these same people are going to fight for federal funding for contraception as well as single payer universal health care, then there's really no avoiding the sneaking suspicion that concern for the unborn is little more than a smokescreen for slut-shame and using children as punishment -- consequences that men, incidentally, never have to bear.

i am not looping you in with the above paragraph. it's intended to be a broader point, particularly as Planned Parenthood -- the very people who provide women's health (the pill, pap smears, etc.) to the most vulnerable women -- is under attack.

it really reminds me of the same-sex marriage debate, in a way. the people who slam gay men for being too promiscuous and/or unhealthy (STDs, substance abuse) then turn around and deny them the very tools they'd need to be less promiscuous and less substance-dependent. same situation. let's defund the very people who actually help women NOT get unintentionally pregnant.

it makes me want to slam my head against the wall in frustration.
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Old 04-15-2011, 05:55 PM   #143
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I have a problem with cloaking a state-mandated trip to a pregnancy care center in the euphemism "medical options." That is blatantly not the purpose and it's deeply insulting to women seeking abortions to talk as if it were. A woman seeking an abortion obviously doesn't want to stay pregnant, which is the only situation pregnancy care centers serve to address.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:37 PM   #144
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the problem is thinking at a 3-day waiting period might somehow influence a decision is really patronizing.
We have waiting periods for all kinds of surgical procedures as well as real or perceived Constitutionally-protected rights (handguns, anyone?). And there are enough stories of women who have changed their minds about getting an abortion that it would seem unfair not to present them with other options.
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Old 04-15-2011, 06:41 PM   #145
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i have no issue with a 3 day waiting period, as long as said waiting period does not make the abortion illegal or whatever.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:57 PM   #146
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You guys need to stop arguing with nathan. The only things that'll satisfy men like him are Pregnancy Gulags, where the women who are pregnant are to remain under suitable (male) guard until they successfully deliver. Then, after the men in control are assured the fetus has survived the dangers of the womb, both mother and child are put back into their previous situation, with no damn state-sponsored welfare, health care or anything else. It's only important to save the fetus, not the infant.
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Old 04-15-2011, 07:59 PM   #147
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Sarcasm aside, generally speaking, when it comes to invasive, surgical procedures for non-life-threatening situations, especially ones that carry an element of risk, second opinions and waiting periods are a fact of life. Should abortion be any different?

There are state-mandated waiting periods for prostate surgery? Penile implants? That's news to me.

You are insulting, condescending, and no longer worthy of anyone's time in any debate.
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Old 04-15-2011, 08:00 PM   #148
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You guys need to stop arguing with nathan. The only things that'll satisfy men like him are Pregnancy Gulags, where the women who are pregnant are to remain under suitable (male) guard until they successfully deliver. Then, after the men in control are assured the fetus has survived the dangers of the womb, both mother and child are put back into their previous situation, with no damn state-sponsored welfare, health care or anything else. It's only important to save the fetus, not the infant.
Wow. Just...wow.

God bless, Martha.
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Old 04-15-2011, 08:35 PM   #149
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I'd prefer to say good to hear from you, martha, because it's been a while, but the tone of discussion in this thread was fine until you posted just now.

If you find nathan so undeserving of your attention, then I strongly suggest you put him on your ignore list, and let others make their own decisions whether to participate in this discussion or not.
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Old 04-15-2011, 08:39 PM   #150
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Is that a problem?
Yeah, you know what, it IS a problem.

First of all, that 72 hour period doesn't even START until after you've had your "pregnancy care center" appointment. So it is a 72-hour wait AT BEST. Why don't you go tell a woman who was raped that she should sit around for 3, 4, 5 days and meditate on just what a wonderful situation she's found herself in.

Second, the "pregnancy care center" is absolutely outrageous. It is NOT a matter of presenting women with a "second opinion" as you claim is customary with surgeries that carry risk. I'm sorry but that's total bullshit and we all know it. A second medical opinion and medical options are outlined by objective medical professionals, not a cabal of individuals who are set on promoting a certain social view.

I would like to know when men who masturbate are going to have to submit themselves to a "sacred sperm center" where they can be advised that they are potentially killing half a life every time they whack off. Or when men who want a vasectomy will have to go to a pregnancy care center where they'll have to sit and listen to ultrasounds of fetal heartbeats before their Johnny is tied off.

Never. I thought so.

I really do feel that there is an increasingly concerted war on women in America.
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