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Old 06-19-2015, 05:24 PM   #91
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I belive McVey had read some book on a new civil war that a lot of WHite Supremacists have read
The Turner Diaries.
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Old 06-19-2015, 10:23 PM   #92
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Rand Paul doesn't think it's about gun control...
Amusing given his father's links to white supremacists ...
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Old 06-20-2015, 02:49 AM   #93
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I don't wish to preach, but again, there's been one gun massacre in my lifetime in my country. After it, our conservative, right-wing government, made our gun laws far stricter. They even had a buy-back scheme. And we haven't had one gun massacre since.

And Pac Mule, I have no issue whatsoever with people shooting for recreation. It's not my thing (I shot a 9mm in Thailand a few years ago and hated it) but I've got a fair few friends who do it and enjoy it. One of my dad's good mates is a recreational shooter. He has guns tattooed on his forearms. His backyard contains a saloon that he built. He's in the States right now competing in some shooting championships. He loves guns. But he is also fully supportive of our gun legislation So I don't understand why your gun nuts are so wacky.

I guess I can see where Charles Cotton is coming from; maybe if one of those churchgoers did have a gun, they might have shot him and maybe two people would have died instead of nine. Maybe. But as trojanchick points out...

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The NRA asshole suggesting that someone else armed would have helped is as bad as blaming the woman who was raped because her skirt was too short.
It is so fucked up that some people think the discussion should be around arming people for safety rather than addressing the racism that is so systemically ingrained in your society or addressing whether your gun legislation is suitable.

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https://www.facebook.com/11668795501...7868420565397/

Jon pretty much nailed it.

"a racial wound that will not heal but we pretend doesn't exist..."

Sums it up. Some pretend it doesn't exist and others try their hardest to diminish the fact that it exists.
This was great, thanks for sharing
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:12 AM   #94
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So I don't understand why your gun nuts are so wacky.
It's ingrained in our culture from the Constitution out. We think we're entitled to live out our John Wayne fantasies on our own terms regardless of the nationwide ramifications. There's nothing more valuable than our God-given right to shoot things.
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:17 AM   #95
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But wasn't that put into the Constitution because it gave the "people" a way of defending themselves should an evil government ever turn into the enemy? I mean I could be wrong but I think in 2015 the chances of any United States government turning tyrannical overnight would be pretty fucking slim
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:27 AM   #96
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But wasn't that put into the Constitution because it gave the "people" a way of defending themselves should an evil government ever turn into the enemy? I mean I could be wrong but I think in 2015 the chances of any United States government turning tyrannical overnight would be pretty fucking slim
What do we mean by 'tyrannical' here, exactly?
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:33 AM   #97
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I think the chances are quite good that the United States government already is a tyranny. But a bunch of guys with semi-automatics are not likely to do much about it. Anyhow my understanding was that a 'well regulated militia' was intended to be thought of as something like a standing army in reserve; to fight the British foreign aggressors, not the republic itself.
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:38 AM   #98
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There's a great deal of paranoia on the right wing. The concept of losing one's means of protection is a deep seated fear and tantamount to living in an Orwellian society. On a practical level, the 2nd Amendment could really use some tweaking, but the gun-clutching becomes a brick wall when any policy changes to firearm possession are suggested. No one is even calling for the population to relinquish all their guns, just to tighten up regulations and throw out the military grade weapons for civilians. DEY TOOK R GUNZ is strawman bullshit that distracts from meaningful change.

The whole thing is embarrassing, really. I wouldn't even trust some of these people to properly interpret an amendment.
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Old 06-20-2015, 03:59 AM   #99
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I mean, that's the thing...no one who isn't doing anything wrong is losing guns...
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Old 06-20-2015, 01:06 PM   #100
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Originally Posted by Kieran McConville View Post
I think the chances are quite good that the United States government already is a tyranny. But a bunch of guys with semi-automatics are not likely to do much about it. Anyhow my understanding was that a 'well regulated militia' was intended to be thought of as something like a standing army in reserve; to fight the British foreign aggressors, not the republic itself.
This is what people don't understand. "Militia" was not meant to be some sort of people's guerrilla force guarding against some hypothetical President-turned-King; the Constitution was written back in the days before large professional standing armies could be organized or paid for by a country as new as the US (Britain, France, et al could but they were also much more advanced in nearly every way and had global colonies that required occupation armies). It's much cheaper to field an army on short notice if the people can bring their own guns to the fight than if the Federal government has to manufacture or buy them to hand out to everyone.

The British still had large colonies in Canada and the Caribbean and armies in the Caribbean in particular to control the slave colonies there along with many loyalist colonists in Canada who still wanted to see the colonies returned to the crown.

The United States of America in the 1780s was quite literally threatened on all sides. If war was declared they needed to re-form the Continental Army as rapidly as possible and at the highest strength possible. This was the reasoning behind the second amendment - this "defend against tyranny" stuff is just language to couch the pragmatic reason behind it. Obviously it's had some unforseen consequences since that time.
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Old 06-20-2015, 04:09 PM   #101
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The 2nd Amendment is just that, an amendment, which means it can be changed.

I mean, is the Constitution not a living document, which allows for changes or alterations as time goes on? Are you supposed to live under rules written 200 years ago and think that's ok?
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Old 06-20-2015, 05:11 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
This is what people don't understand. "Militia" was not meant to be some sort of people's guerrilla force guarding against some hypothetical President-turned-King; the Constitution was written back in the days before large professional standing armies could be organized or paid for by a country as new as the US (Britain, France, et al could but they were also much more advanced in nearly every way and had global colonies that required occupation armies). It's much cheaper to field an army on short notice if the people can bring their own guns to the fight than if the Federal government has to manufacture or buy them to hand out to everyone.

The British still had large colonies in Canada and the Caribbean and armies in the Caribbean in particular to control the slave colonies there along with many loyalist colonists in Canada who still wanted to see the colonies returned to the crown.

The United States of America in the 1780s was quite literally threatened on all sides. If war was declared they needed to re-form the Continental Army as rapidly as possible and at the highest strength possible. This was the reasoning behind the second amendment - this "defend against tyranny" stuff is just language to couch the pragmatic reason behind it. Obviously it's had some unforseen consequences since that time.
The only reason Canada is a country is because England saved it from Yankee aggression in 1812. It was that same Yankee aggression that stole the better parts of Mexico.
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Old 06-20-2015, 07:45 PM   #103
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I know my view on firearms is the minority view here.

I will get back into that fray later on, but not now.


I live in South Carolina and I just wanted the share a link that is circulating among my friends and their friends on Facebook.

A Bow to Charleston - Peggy Noonan's Blog - WSJ
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Old 06-20-2015, 08:41 PM   #104
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I live in South Carolina and I just wanted the share a link that is circulating among my friends and their friends on Facebook.

A Bow to Charleston - Peggy Noonan's Blog - WSJ
"Let them grieve in peace."
Yes, please do. For all the other people, there's work to do. So for you and your friends in South Caroline, don't put your head in the sand. Fight the racism and gun violence.

From the comments section of that article you quote:
[...]when do we get to discuss action on gun violence. "It's too soon" after Columbine, Red Lake, Virginia Tech, Aurora, Oak Creek, Sandy Hook and on and on and on. WHEN, WHEN, WHEN, WHEN do we get to talk appropriate action?

Also, from a foreigner's perspective (with too many good lines to just quote one of them):
http://www.youtube.com/lL8JEEt2RxI
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Old 06-21-2015, 01:07 AM   #105
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Mass Shooting at South Carolina AME Church

Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveC View Post
This is what people don't understand. "Militia" was not meant to be some sort of people's guerrilla force guarding against some hypothetical President-turned-King; the Constitution was written back in the days before large professional standing armies could be organized or paid for by a country as new as the US (Britain, France, et al could but they were also much more advanced in nearly every way and had global colonies that required occupation armies). It's much cheaper to field an army on short notice if the people can bring their own guns to the fight than if the Federal government has to manufacture or buy them to hand out to everyone.

The British still had large colonies in Canada and the Caribbean and armies in the Caribbean in particular to control the slave colonies there along with many loyalist colonists in Canada who still wanted to see the colonies returned to the crown.

The United States of America in the 1780s was quite literally threatened on all sides. If war was declared they needed to re-form the Continental Army as rapidly as possible and at the highest strength possible. This was the reasoning behind the second amendment - this "defend against tyranny" stuff is just language to couch the pragmatic reason behind it. Obviously it's had some unforseen consequences since that time.
Yeah, the narrative doesn't really take into account the basic changes in military structure between the 1700/1800s vs now. In 2015 we don't have Teddy Roosevelt characters forming their own companies of their buddies to supplement a small force of paid regulars to fight a war, because that's not how this shit works anymore.
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