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Old 12-15-2012, 01:05 AM   #121
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Why would I feel guilt? I didn't pull the trigger. I didn't know the guy.


Guilt about guns. Guilt about participation in a society that glorifies violence and stigmatizes mental health.

I feel it too. We all should.

The difference is that I don't think we're dealing with a criminal. We're dealing with a monster.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:08 AM   #122
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Guilt about guns. Guilt about participation in a society that glorifies violence and stigmatizes mental health.

I feel it too. We all should.

The difference is that I don't think we're dealing with a criminal. We're dealing with a monster.


Exactly. Look at the PG13 movies. Crazy violence, but show a tit and that gets an R rating. The priorities in this country are way out of wack, but that's a result of its founding.


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Old 12-15-2012, 01:08 AM   #123
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It's an unending argument because there is no right or wrong position.
No, there aren't. And there are no easy answers.

But it helps for purposes of discussion if you come across like you're at least hearing what the others are saying. And to be fair, you seem to be conveying that better here than you were earlier.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:11 AM   #124
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No, there aren't. And there are no easy answers.

But it helps for purposes of discussion if you come across like you're at least hearing what the others are saying. And to be fair, you seem to be conveying that better here than you were earlier.
I see what you're saying and I see how I have approached this topic in both forums. I've toned down my rhetoric
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:11 AM   #125
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Sounds like he had a lot of problems based on what people he went to school with, and neighbors and friends are saying. And the brother didn't talk to friends much about him, so he didn't seem to be able to handle his brother's problems.

The family is very wealthy, so I'm surprised nothing was done. Nobody expects thisto happen, but people have to take it seriously. Send him to therapy, then if they feel something even more should be done like putting them in a hospital, then it should be.

Of course we don't know, maybe he was in therapy, but as of now nobody has mentioned that he was.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:12 AM   #126
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Sounds like he had a lot of problems based on what people he went to school with, and neighbors and friends are saying. And the brother didn't talk to friends much about him, so he didn't seem to be able to handle his brother's problems.

The family is very wealthy, so I'm surprised nothing was done. Nobody expects thisto happen, but people have to take it seriously. Send him to therapy, then if they feel something even more should be done like putting them in a hospital, then it should be.

Of course we don't know, maybe he was in therapy, but as of now nobody has mentioned that he was.
How can you send someone to therapy when they won't go? Once they're 18, they're responsible for themselves
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:13 AM   #127
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No.

You are dealing with a sick individual.

This is no shooting a cheating spouse. This is not murdering someone who owes you money.

This is a deep degree of mental illness. All that you are doing is trying to absolve yourself of feeling any guilt by pulling out a weak "it was a choice" explanation for these actions.
this line of thinking lets the person off scott free

that is my problem with this line of thinking

I believe at some point however disturbed one may be, there are some forks in the road and even a person with some sort of diminished capacity can choose one correct direction instead of every wrong one, at each choice even with diminished capacities there is some free will involved, just giving them a pass, it is the same as saying there is nothing that can be done because some people just go off for no reason, whats to be done
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:18 AM   #128
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Anyway. I told myself I wasn't going to get drawn into discussions about this, or even pay attention to the 'net tonight.

Corifail.

Peace to all y'all. Be well.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:21 AM   #129
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Anyway. I told myself I wasn't going to get drawn into discussions about this, or even pay attention to the 'net tonight.

Corifail.

Peace to all y'all. Be well.
I told myself I'd ignore it all, and I made it to about 11pm.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:22 AM   #130
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You should go to bed.

... and I say that with all kindness, I swear.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:24 AM   #131
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this line of thinking lets the person off scott free

that is my problem with this line of thinking

I believe at some point however disturbed one may be, there are some forks in the road and even a person with some sort of diminished capacity can choose one correct direction instead of every wrong one, at each choice even with diminished capacities there is some free will involved, just giving them a pass, it is the same as saying there is nothing that can be done because some people just go off for no reason, whats to be done
I know this isn't murdering hoards of people, but I've seen my mother, in the grip of Alzheimer's, say and do things she would not have even 5 or 10 years ago. It's a mental illness brought on by changes in brain structure. Do I absolve her of responsibility? Absolutely I do.

Neuroscience and brain imaging is a relatively new field, but there have been a ton of studies showing differences in brain structure of the mentally ill vs. normal people. It's even been in the news recently about psychopathy and their brain structures and how they differ from the normal population.

How does that differ from my mom and the tangles and plaque that are taking over her brain?
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:31 AM   #132
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if a person is gone and not functioning that is one thing, but if one is functioning at a diminished capacity that is a different situation.

I took care of two elderly family members until they passed away, and yes their brains did change. They were not themselves, they went from pleasant kind people to sometimes being nasty and mean, but still there was enough left that they knew the difference between right and wrong.

If one murdered the other, I would expect they would have been held accountable and their condition would have been considered at sentencing.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:36 AM   #133
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Right and wrong is a matter of degrees...my mom has said and done some things that I know she would have considered very wrong a few years ago. Many Alzheimer's patients do get violent with their caregivers, hitting and biting. I'm sure the one thing that prevents escalation from that are the physical limitations that go with the disease. Bottom line, it's one of many illnesses (others being congenital) that drastically change mood, thoughts and behaviour. And yet we don't blame Alzheimer patients.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:44 AM   #134
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I believe if we start locking up thousands of anti-social 20 year olds with some kind of FB or twitter postings that might sound ? marginally what? The kid's parents and ACLU would be all over it.

And I don't understand the digression into old people losing thier minds. As i said I dealt with that, watched them lose their drivers license, and ability to live on their own. That is quite a different situation then functioning young adults going on killing sprees. We have had quite a few of those lately.
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Old 12-15-2012, 01:54 AM   #135
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I don't think the onus is on some stranger reading a kid's tweet to say that the kid needs treatment for mental illness, but perhaps their loved ones might do better at taking the signs seriously and getting them help?

The digression into Alzheimer's was just to show a common example of "acceptable" mental illness, where the sufferers are not held responsible for their actions. Not all devastating mental illness is as obvious or recognizable, but it exists.
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