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Old 12-14-2012, 11:45 PM   #91
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:50 PM   #92
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Take a second to rethink presumptive views:

How can we explain shootings if we don’t report on mental illness? | Poynter.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:51 PM   #93
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Can this thread not go straight to the shitter?

Thanks.
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:55 PM   #94
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It's got Steved's name on it, doesn't it?
I adopted an online persona at the end of high school in the late 90s that I never dropped. I've really played it up on this site over the last couple of years, because, well what the hell.

I'm dead serious right now. This is me, and I'm pissed at what this scumbag did. I taught in an elementary school last year. How could you turn a gun on an innocent child? I'm also appalled that you people are making excuses for him. I'm shocked that you people are using mental illness as an excuse to justify what he did. Oh if he would have just gotten help this would have never happened! Give me a break! Some people can't be helped. Some people are beyond help.

I respect people who work in the mental health field (VP), but I disagree.There are some people who are evil and can't be helped. Those are the people who never cross your path (or any other therapist). Those are the people who fly under the radar their whole life. Those are the people that have neighbors that say, "he was so quiet!" The withdrawn and quiet types. The Ted Bundys, the Jeffery Dahmers, the Greenriver Killers, the Hitlers, and Stalins, Georges Rutagandas, and Pol Pots. There is evil in this world. Some people are a lost cause...
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Old 12-14-2012, 11:56 PM   #95
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Can this thread not go straight to the shitter?

Thanks.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:05 AM   #96
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I adopted an online persona at the end of high school in the late 90s that I never dropped. I've really played it up on this site over the last couple of years, because, well what the hell.
I'm dead serious right now. This is me, and I'm pissed at what this scumbag did. I taught in an elementary school last year. How could you turn a gun on an innocent child? I'm also appalled that you people are making excuses for him. I'm shocked that you people are using mental illness as an excuse to justify what he did. Oh if he would have just gotten help this would have never happened! Give me a break! Some people can't be helped. Some people are beyond help.

I respect people who work in the mental health field (VP), but I disagree.There are some people who are evil and can't be helped. Those are the people who never cross your path (or any other therapist). Those are the people who fly under the radar their whole life. Those are the people that have neighbors that say, "he was so quiet!" The withdrawn and quiet types. The Ted Bundys, the Jeffery Dahmers, the Greenriver Killers, the Hitlers, and Stalins, Georges Rutagandas, and Pol Pots. There is evil in this world. Some people are a lost cause...
Your high school persona is obnoxious. I much prefer this post.

Thanks for the respect. I'm not currently working in the field, but do have a high degree of interest, and hope to go to grad school in the area some day.

I completely get your anger. I feel it too. But I can also detach myself a little and wonder what happened to the guy to have him come to this - not simply to feel sympathy for him, but in the interest of treating people like him, and preventing this from happening again.

I don't have all the answers obviously, but I don't believe in "pure evil"...I'm atheist, and I don't believe in pure good, either. Just imperfect humans, some more imperfect than others. And I wish society were better in helping those who need it. And other than that, I'm way too sad to debate it further tonight. I wish we could all just hug those parents, and maybe have a little compassion for those who are suffering mentally, tonight. That's all.

Eta - guns don't help, either. Guns and crazy don't mix. And if the sane have to be deprived of or work a little harder to get legitimate guns, so be it, it's a minuscule price to pay.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:08 AM   #97
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Honestly, Steved, on a gut level I'm totally with you. I have immense sympathy and compassion for people who are mentally ill. I can't imagine what it's like to go through the sorts of things they do, and definitely think the stigma and shame around it needs to stop, and think the fact that they have to fight to get adequate care is absolutely appalling.

But most mentally ill people also don't go on murderous rampages. So it may sound cold, it may sound heartless, but the moment this guy decided to take out all those kids, I kind of stopped showing any sympathy for whatever he was going through. Innocent people shouldn't have to die as a result of whatever personal problems someone is dealing with. I know, as Cori noted, that mentally ill people generally aren't in a position to properly rationalize things like that, but still, I look at this and just see the obvious fact that there was no reason all those people had to die today. None whatsoever. And I do think that there are rare cases where there are some people who just cannot be helped. I think they were born with things not wired right in their brains. What we should do with people in those instances, I don't know. But I think it is a sad reality we may have to come to terms with in some cases.

All of that being said, however, hard as it is, scary as it is, disturbing as it is, I do think it is worthwhile to try and understand the other side. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on mental illness by any stretch, but I do know it's a very complex issue, which is probably one of the reasons we don't talk about it so much after these situations. Where do you even begin with this conversation? And I say all the stuff above about how I hold no sympathy for him, but then I feel bad for that because then we associate all mentally ill people with things like this and we just add to the stigma of the issue at large with that line of thinking.

It's a very difficult situation, and I can easily see both sides here.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:13 AM   #98
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Your high school persona is obnoxious. I much prefer this post.

Thanks for the respect. I'm not currently working in the field, but do have a high degree of interest, and hope to go to grad school in the area some day.

I completely get your anger. I feel it too. But I can also detach myself a little and wonder what happened to the guy to have him come to this - not simply to feel sympathy for him, but in the interest of treating people like him, and preventing this from happening again.

I don't have all the answers obviously, but I don't believe in "pure evil"...I'm atheist, and I don't believe in pure good, either. Just imperfect humans, some more imperfect than others. And I wish society were better in helping those who need it. And other than that, I'm way too sad to debate it further tonight. I wish we could all just hug those parents, and maybe have a little compassion for those who are suffering mentally, tonight. That's all.

Eta - guns don't help, either. Guns and crazy don't mix. And if the sane have to be deprived of or work a little harder to get legitimate guns, so be it, it's a minuscule price to pay.
That is where we differ, I can feel empathy for people, but in this case, I can only feel it for the kids that were scared as he barged into their classroom.

A perfect society would give help to all who need it, but what would happen if he never sought help? What would happen if no one ever recognized the signs?

If people want guns, they'll get them. I could drive down to Newark and buy a handgun off the street if I want tonight. All the laws in the world won't stop people from getting them if they really want them.

The more kids they put on TV that describe what happened. The more pissed I become. Just let them mourn! They're already going to be scarred for life.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:18 AM   #99
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If people want guns, they'll get them. I could drive down to Newark and buy a handgun off the street if I want tonight.
That's one of your major problems, right there. Other countries don't have that ease of access.

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The more kids they put on TV that describe what happened. The more pissed I become. Just let them mourn! They're already going to be scarred for life.
Again, another societal problem, the media shouldn't be putting kids on tv, but it's always a battle for who will be the first to report, who will get the higher ratings...
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:19 AM   #100
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Honestly, Steved, on a gut level I'm totally with you. I have immense sympathy and compassion for people who are mentally ill. I can't imagine what it's like to go through the sorts of things they do, and definitely think the stigma and shame around it needs to stop, and think the fact that they have to fight to get adequate care is absolutely appalling.

But most mentally ill people also don't go on murderous rampages. So it may sound cold, it may sound heartless, but the moment this guy decided to take out all those kids, I kind of stopped showing any sympathy for whatever he was going through. Innocent people shouldn't have to die as a result of whatever personal problems someone is dealing with. I know, as Cori noted, that mentally ill people generally aren't in a position to properly rationalize things like that, but still, I look at this and just see the obvious fact that there was no reason all those people had to die today. None whatsoever. And I do think that there are rare cases where there are some people who just cannot be helped. I think they were born with things not wired right in their brains. What we should do with people in those instances, I don't know. But I think it is a sad reality we may have to come to terms with in some cases.

All of that being said, however, hard as it is, scary as it is, disturbing as it is, I do think it is worthwhile to try and understand the other side. I certainly don't claim to be an expert on mental illness by any stretch, but I do know it's a very complex issue, which is probably one of the reasons we don't talk about it so much after these situations. Where do you even begin with this conversation? And I say all the stuff above about how I hold no sympathy for him, but then I feel bad for that because then we associate all mentally ill people with things like this and we just add to the stigma of the issue at large with that line of thinking.

It's a very difficult situation, and I can easily see both sides here.
I agree! Mentally ill people don't go on rampages.. It's the ones that you don't see coming..The ones that aren't wired right. Those are the ones that come out of no where. The Virginia Tech Killer and all those serial killers. The ones that hide it, that won't get help even if it was available. What can you do? That's what is scary. There is nothing you can do, no signs. They hide it. There maybe signs when they're young, but once they're old enough, they hide it. In a perfect world, everyone would get the help and support they need. Unfortunately this isn't a perfect world.

I know the bible teaches, "Turn the other cheek and forgive and don't judge and all that", but not in this case.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:19 AM   #101
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Awareness and care for mental illnesses can always be better. I totally see where you're coming from Steved... but this is not a situation to go "fuck the mental illness". It provides an opportunity to talk more about it, what leads people down these horrible paths. I'm with you in that I've got no empathy for the guy whatsoever though. Personally mine disappears when you commit a crime like that.

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Eta - guns don't help, either. Guns and crazy don't mix. And if the sane have to be deprived of or work a little harder to get legitimate guns, so be it, it's a minuscule price to pay.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:22 AM   #102
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That's one of your major problems, right there. Other countries don't have that ease of access.



Again, another societal problem, the media shouldn't be putting kids on tv, but it's always a battle for who will be the first to report, who will get the higher ratings...
Well yeah it's the media. They shouldn't, but RATINGS!!!! They just had the teacher on that had her kids stand on a toilet then blocked the door with a filing cabinet.

You can argue that more gun control would have prevented it, then you can argue that if everyone was armed and trained this would have never happened. People are just afraid to admit that there are sick people among us. Some people hide it, some people snap and do stuff like this. I wonder what's going to come out about this guy in the next few weeks.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:25 AM   #103
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Awareness and care for mental illnesses can always be better. I totally see where you're coming from Steved... but this is not a situation to go "fuck the mental illness". It provides an opportunity to talk more about it, what leads people down these horrible paths. I'm with you in that I've got no empathy for the guy whatsoever though. Personally mine disappears when you commit a crime like that.



I'm not saying fuck the mental illness. I'm all for identifying these people and getting the help they need so that they could function in society productively. I'm also willing to admit that there are some people that fly under the radar that we'll never be able to identify. Those are the ones that do stuff like this. Those are the ones who will never get the help even if it is right there.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:30 AM   #104
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Well yeah it's the media. They shouldn't, but RATINGS!!!! They just had the teacher on that had her kids stand on a toilet then blocked the door with a filing cabinet.

You can argue that more gun control would have prevented it, then you can argue that if everyone was armed and trained this would have never happened. People are just afraid to admit that there are sick people among us. Some people hide it, some people snap and do stuff like this. I wonder what's going to come out about this guy in the next few weeks.
...and, if people didn't watch it (you included, from what you said), they wouldn't get the ratings.

I just think it's extremely short-sighted to discount the need for more and effective, and wider-reaching mental health services, when that is one of the two major causes of this sort of thing. What you brought up about adult snapping without warning and this sort of thing happening is unusual. There are almost always warning signs, if people are looking for them. The problem is, other people exhibit similar or the same signs, but never escalate to something like this. So it's true that there is no way of telling who will snap and who won't...it would just help a lot if people would look out for each other more.
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Old 12-15-2012, 12:35 AM   #105
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...and, if people didn't watch it (you included, from what you said), they wouldn't get the ratings.

I just think it's extremely short-sighted to discount the need for more and effective, and wider-reaching mental health services, when that is one of the two major causes of this sort of thing. What you brought up about adult snapping without warning and this sort of thing happening is unusual. There are almost always warning signs, if people are looking for them. The problem is, other people exhibit similar or the same signs, but never escalate to something like this. So it's true that there is no way of telling who will snap and who won't...it would just help a lot if people would look out for each other more.
How can people not watch it? We want to know what happened. We want to know why it happened. We want to know who it happened to, and what they did and how they reacted and so on. It's human curiosity.

People claim we live in an interconnected society, but really no one looks out for each other anymore. How many people in here really know their neighbors? Walking the halls in the high school I work at, kids have their heads in their cell phones texting or doing whatever they do in between classes. Hell, I'm guilty of it when I'm doing my food shopping, i always have my earbuds in. How can we look for signs among our neighbors when we isolate ourselves?
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