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Old 12-26-2012, 05:54 PM   #406
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Originally Posted by Galeongirl View Post
So yeah... apparently the Bushmaster was given as christmas presents shitloads of times this year. Because they fear it might get banned, hey, let's give someone a killing device for christmas.


I'm sitting here with the latest People magazine in front of me. It has the pictures of everyone who died in this shooting on the cover, and there's little blurbs about each and every one of them inside alongside the story about the shooting.

Just reading the stories brought tears to my eyes. I want so, so badly to send this out to every last gun nut moron, to all those who went out and brought up all sorts of guns like noted above imaginable in the last week and a half or so, in this country and FORCE them to stare, for a very, very, very long time, at each and every one of those people's faces, especially the kids'. I want them to think about every parent of those kids who are in pain and hurting, who will never see their children ever again. I want to do this until it FINALLY gets drilled into their heads how absolutely batshit insane their stance on this issue is, and how imperative it is that we actually do something to try and stop this from ever happening again.

I never understood the mindset of rabid gun nuts as it was, I really, honest to God, am absolutely mystified by this worldview now. They're absolute psychos. Get. Over. This. Obsession.
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Old 12-26-2012, 07:15 PM   #407
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Hey everyone. Question for you guys.

Let's say that some type of gun violence legislation DOES get passed on a national level next year (a la the "Brady Act").

How many of you are willing to bet that another Timothy McVeigh will come out of the woodwork and take out a building full of people?
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:20 PM   #408
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Originally Posted by HBK-79 View Post
Hey everyone. Question for you guys.

Let's say that some type of gun violence legislation DOES get passed on a national level next year (a la the "Brady Act").

How many of you are willing to bet that another Timothy McVeigh will come out of the woodwork and take out a building full of people?
what kind of correlation are you trying to make? Are you saying that if guns are regulated and someone is denied access that they'll be so angry that they'll take out a building?
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:26 PM   #409
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I think it's this: if automatic weapons are banned, and someone is intent on a mass killing, he will resort to another method, such as a bomb.

I think that attack in China perfectly demonstrates that you cannot commit mass murder with a knife. Of course, bomb making materials are already available and can be bought separately, so gun regulation has nothing to do with another Oklahoma City attack.
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Old 12-26-2012, 08:52 PM   #410
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I think it's this: if automatic weapons are banned, and someone is intent on a mass killing, he will resort to another method, such as a bomb.

I think that attack in China perfectly demonstrates that you cannot commit mass murder with a knife. Of course, bomb making materials are already available and can be bought separately, so gun regulation has nothing to do with another Oklahoma City attack.
There have been mass killings in China a guy with a knife over the past 2-3 years. One killed eight, another killed seven, and there have been some that have killed 2 or 3. Many were wounded.

A pro gun person would say "See? If someone wants to kill he'll find a way." But I can't help but wonder how many more people would have died in those cases if the killers had guns and lots of ammo.

To me anything that makes someone bent on killing another (or many others) work harder to do so is a good thing. It shouldn't be easy.
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Old 12-26-2012, 09:20 PM   #411
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I think it's this: if automatic weapons are banned, and someone is intent on a mass killing, he will resort to another method, such as a bomb.
Maybe it was the way he worded it, it almost sounded like he was saying that it was a cause and effect thing.

Here's the thing, I hear from pro-gun people all the time some form of this argument, and honestly it's one of the weakest arguments I've heard.

Yes, if someone has the intent to kill they will kill regardless of mode.

But, I can likely outrun a guy with a bat or knife. The likelihood of a 10+ person killing with one of these modes, slim to none. It's a matter of odds.

Bombs? Bombs are illegal, period. Is it still possible to build one? Of course. The claim has never been to eliminate all murder.

So now we're back to guns. What is a legitimate reason for a 30 round clip?

Hunting? You better take up another "sport" if you're that lousy of a shot. No, the only purpose is to kill as many as possible, so why are we keeping them legal? Not one person has ever been able to give me a good answer.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:12 PM   #412
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I just see these arguments (and hear them) and all i think is that a good majority of gun owners are deflecting their own selfishness to own a gun versus the safety of others.

If someone blows up a building, it wasn't due to gun laws, it was their choice of destruction. We've been lucky not to have mass bombings in this country. It's not something that's easy to pull off.

Columbine was originally supposed to be a bombing with the killers waiting outside to pick off the students but it didnt work so they adapted to blowing away students with their guns.

People are always going to try and find ways to hurt those in a society. Whether its a knife, gun, bomb or flying an airplane into a building.

Odd how someone flies a plane as a weapon and we regulate the shit out if that. Yet gun deaths a year in the US are like 10x what 9/11 caused and we do nothing cause its our right.

At the very least get rid of the military grade weapons. Will take time but can be done.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:21 PM   #413
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Odd how someone flies a plane as a weapon and we regulate the shit out if that. Yet gun deaths a year in the US are like 10x what 9/11 caused and we do nothing cause its our right.

At the very least get rid of the military grade weapons. Will take time but can be done.
Exactly!

The reasons why some are adamantly against changing the gun laws, is because they believe if the constitution could be tweaked like that, then anything can happen with this country. They are staunch right-wingers who have radical views and fears, so it will take a lot to get them to make a compromise of some sort.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:37 PM   #414
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These insane gun nuts who think that by taking away their guns we are mere moments away from slipping into tyranny whereby the government will oppress them without the possibility of being thrown over have completely lost the plot.

The US government is backed by the best military in history. You think that some redneck with a Bushmaster is essential to freedom? Really? Because he is going to overthrow the government armed with drones, nuclear warheads, submarines, stealth fighters, etc, etc. These people must be actually certifiably non compos mentis.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:39 PM   #415
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I agree, antiram! Well said
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:52 PM   #416
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A gun can go off in a split second. Plenty of other weapons allow you time to get past a moment of rage and get a hold of yourself. That fact is not talked about nearly enough.
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Old 12-26-2012, 10:59 PM   #417
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Originally Posted by HBK-79 View Post
Hey everyone. Question for you guys.

Let's say that some type of gun violence legislation DOES get passed on a national level next year (a la the "Brady Act").

How many of you are willing to bet that another Timothy McVeigh will come out of the woodwork and take out a building full of people?
McVeigh was former military. He attended Army Combat engineering school and served in the Gulf War. So he had the technical knowhow and expertise to pull Oklahoma off. For the average twentysomething would-be sociopath, it's generally much harder to smuggle a few barrels of kerosene into a building than it is to carry a semi-automatic under a trenchcoat.
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Old 12-26-2012, 11:01 PM   #418
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Exactly. And I agree with anitram, too.

I'd also point out that for all the people who argue that if we just arm the "good guys" (and I'm still waiting to hear exactly how we'll differentiate the "good" from the "bad". Especially since good people can do stupid things and bad people can have moments of good, but, yeah) that they should look at how, for instance, SWAT teams handle things. Those are comprised of people who are VERY well trained in handling guns and dealing with violent, or potentially violent situations. They are good shots and everything. And even THEY are cautious before they go into a situation literally guns a-blazing, because they don't want to hurt any innocent people by mistake and want the situation to end as peacefully as possible with little to no bloodshed.

So if they can exercise restraint, I'm pretty sure that your average citizen can learn to do the same. Unless the idea of going through a society where everyone is armed and looking at each other suspiciously, all tense and ready to pull their triggers at the slightest potential threat, real or imagined, honestly sounds like a comforting way of life to you.
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Old 12-27-2012, 08:12 AM   #419
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I also don't get the logic "but the bad guys will have assault weapons!!!"

What bad guys? The mafia? Mexican Drug Cartels? Bain???

Why aren't the bad guys going around and shooting up businesses or malls? Instead it's always some disgruntled young adult or crazy as fuck older person (the New York Firefighter tragedy).

I don't see Al Capone running around shooting off his tommy gun. And I don't see anyone else, except normal citizens taking these weapons to the range or showing off in home pics or videos.

While I'd like to see all guns removed, that's not going to happen (yet), so citizens can still carry their pistols or hand guns like they do now. I mean, how many people go walking around with an AR15 rifle concealed?

And if you live in such a bad area that you need military weapons to protect you and your family, maybe it's time to think about moving to a safer part of the city or as far away from where you live now.

But no, makes much more sense to just own more guns. And it's easier to create bogeymen out of society to justify your reason for having a boozoka.
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Old 12-27-2012, 02:27 PM   #420
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Interesting. I also find it interesting that the people who commit these crimes are male and white. When was the last time it was a female, or a minority?

If anyone's interested there's an excellent Frontline show on the PBS web site about one of the early school shootings, the kid's name was Kip Kinkel. I watched it and it's just so disturbing. He also killed his mother and father.

Video: The Killer at Thurston High | Watch FRONTLINE Online | PBS Video




Looking for clues: Researchers to study Lanza's DNA
By Maggie Fox, NBC News

The Connecticut medical examiner has asked scientists to analyze the DNA of Adam Lanza, the 20-year-old who killed 27 people, including his mother, two classrooms full of small children and teachers, before killing himself on Dec. 14.

Investigators hope that studying Lanza's DNA for mutations or other abnormalities may shed some light on the tragedy. Connecticut's chief medical examiner, Dr. H. Wayne Carver II, called the University of Connecticut a few days before Christmas asking for help from the UConn Health Center’s Department of Genetics and Developmental Biology, said UConn spokesman Tom Breen.

“They have agreed to offer any assistance they can to help the chief medical examiner in his investigation,” Breen said. Of Carver, Breen said, “He wanted help in conducting tests relating to genetics involving the shooter in the Newtown massacre.”

Breen said did not know what specific tests would be conducted. He said UConn was happy to help.

“This is such a terrible thing,” Breen said. “Everybody in the state has been affected by this.”

Will a DNA analysis help explain Lanza's rampage?

The study of Lanza's DNA would be for research purposes, not to find a diganosis for his acts, says Arthur Caplan, Ph.D, NBC News contributor and head of Division of Bioethics at New York University Langone Medical Center in New York City. While there has been prior research on genetic mutations and violent behavior, looking at someone’s genes "is like hunting in a DNA haystack," Caplan says.

"We don’t have a database that says there’s a correlation between genes and propenstity to violence or crime or propensity to mental illness," he says. "A particular DNA message may indicate a propensity to behavior, but at best you might find associations to greater risk. You won’t find a gene that says I’m going to be a mass murderer or a terrorist or an assassin."

James Fallon, a neuroscientist at the University of California, Irvine, who studies serial killers and other violent criminals, argues it will be fruitless to try to pin Lanza’s acts on his genes alone. Genetic data only paints part of the picture, he's found.

"The genes by themselves don’t tell you. If you just have a PET scan or MRI you can’t tell," Fallon said last week. "The psych report alone won't tell you. You put those things together you really get a lot of information." And some of what's been found by Fallon and other researchers provides some surprising insights.

Take for instance the “warrior gene”, the monoamine oxidase-A, or MAOA, gene that, has received widespread media attention, said Fallon.

“People know about the warrior gene and that it is associated with psychopaths and with killing,” Fallon said in a telephone interview.

Only a handful of diseases, such as cystic fibrosis, cause symptoms based on a single mutated gene. Most require thousands of changes and interactions. “So the idea that you have the warrior gene, therefore you are a warrior, it doesn’t hack it,” Fallon says.

It takes something more than just a genetic predisposition to make someone violent.

Fallon says there is no scientifically acceptable body of work on the genetics of violent behavior. "I don’t know of a case where even one killer has been studied genetically to an appropriate level, " Fallon said.

Likewise, brain studies have shed some light but can’t explain or predict the most extreme behaviors, said Dr. Martin Teicher, director of the Developmental Biopsychiatry Research Program at Harvard Medical School and McLean Hospital in Massachusetts.

“I don’t think we have the answer from neuroscience,” Teicher said. “Given the millions of people there are, the tiny handful of people who did these things are quite rare … We are drawing generalities from people who have had bad experiences, and who are maybe more prone to get into a fight, but they never would do anything like this.”

There is something that many violent people do have in common, however. Research done by Teicher, Fallon and others shows that violent criminals are, in fact, excessively anxious and fearful.

“Individuals at risk for violence often suffer from tremendous anxiety,” Teicher said. “It’s one of the most striking things I have noticed.” He’s treated high school students expelled or suspended for violence, but when they are in his office, they are anything but threatening.

“These are the frightening children in high school, yet they are essentially sitting in their mother’s laps,” Teicher said. “They were ridden with anxiety.”

And in some cases, this is combined with an inability to “read” other people. Teicher’s found this in some patients.

“We found differences in the (brain) cortex of violence-exposed individuals that play a role in social perception,” Teicher said. “These are regions involved in being able to infer what other people are thinking.” Brain scans show that the blood isn’t flowing normally in those brain regions. “They may be prone to misattribute thoughts and feelings,” Teicher says.

Such deficiencies can be immensely stressful to a young man or teenager, Fallon says. “He looks at people and doesn’t understand what they are feeling,” he said.

On top of this, Teicher has seen differences in parts of the brain’s frontal cortex that are involved in impulse control. “Misreading people and having difficulty controlling impulses may foster inappropriate actions,” Teicher says.

And while schizophrenia or bipolar disease do not usually lead to violent behavior, they can contribute to dangerous acts if patients are also racked with anxiety and not getting any sort of treatment.

“The late teens, early 20s, are when people have these psychotic breaks," Fallon said.

Most young people with these developing psychiatric conditions may feel anxious or threatened, but they don’t actually act on their feelings in part because they are unable to, Fallon said. Studies show the adolescent brain lacks the connections to initiate certain actions.

The brain is still growing, making new connections and cutting unneeded circuits, until the early 20s, Fallon said. The prefrontal cortex, involved in “executive function” or decision-making, is the last part of the brain to mature.

In an anxious young man, unable to understand people around him, perhaps ascribing all sorts of mistaken intentions to others, this could come to a climax, said Fallon, who studies how message-carrying chemicals such as dopamine and norepinephrine act in the brain.

The young man's brain is still growing and changing until, finally, the prefrontal cortex matures. The amygdala, the part of the brain responsible for fear responses on the most basic level, is at the same time being flooded with corticotropin-releasing hormone, which is involved in the brain's stress response.

“He is finally able to take action,” Fallon says. “Now the moment has come for him to carry out the ultimate act. If you turn it around like that, it makes a lot of logical sense."
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