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Old 03-06-2008, 09:34 PM   #91
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and now both genders are able to provide these benefits for themselves.

marriage is really about ideals now, about aiming to be something greater as a couple than you could be as an individual.

and i see sexual orientation as having nothing to do with this.
This is an excellent post.
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:36 PM   #92
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the stabilizing nature of a one-on-one coupling, especially as it relates to the rearing of a family, again, is not predicated anymore upon opposite sexed pairing. it's good for both partners, male/male or male/female, insofar as they choose to be part of this coupling. and insofar as the coupling becomes destructive or hurtful, both partners can willingly separate from one another. it is about choice, it is not about survival.

the modern nature of marriage has no need to maintain any kind of exclusion.

That's all well and good, but in my view it ignores - and this has nothing to do with gay marriage - this revolution in choice that you've outlined ignores the damage done to the development of children by modern day fashions such as 'no-fault' divorce.

For thousands of years of human history, marriage fulfilled an important, even dare I say it, a 'sacred' role, but now it's viewed as a silly old fashioned nonsense, because apparently we know better!

We are so f****ing conceited, as a society, that we think we can throw out the window thousands of years of cultural history and not suffer any adverse consequences!

We have reaped our bitter harvest of the 1960's permissive revolution - we have higher suicide rates, drug addiction, messed up kids, etc, and to be honest, to an extent I have a lot of sympathy for right wing conservative commentators who argue that the 'permissive society' has been very very bad for children, and for society in general.

But I've absolutely nothing against gay marriage per se, and I look forward to voting in favour of it when and if there is a referendum in Ireland on that matter, and I'm pleased to report that just 12 years after homosexuality was decriminalised in Ireland, steps are being taken to legislate for civil contracts for gay couples.
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:44 PM   #93
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[B]


That's all well and good, but in my view it ignores - and this has nothing to do with gay marriage - this revolution in choice that you've outlined ignores the damage done to the development of children by modern day fashions such as 'no-fault' divorce.

For thousands of years of human history, marriage fulfilled an important, even dare I say it, a 'sacred' role, but now it's viewed as a silly old fashioned nonsense, because apparently we know better!

it could be that having choice is hard. it could be that there's much more responsibility now, that it's harder now, precisely because we have undreamed of options that our ancestors did not. would you switch places with them?

though i've had many friends who's parents divorced, i do think that most of them are fine, fully-functional human beings, whereas there are many children who grew up in violent homes where the parents hated one another, and their children, and everyone would have been much better off had the parents actually divorced.

are there selfish assholes who enter a marriage, have kids, and then decide that they'd rather have free time to jog and play tennis? yes. but is it also worth being able to leave a bad relationship? probably.



[q]We have reaped our bitter harvest of the 1960's permissive revolution - we have higher suicide rates, drug addiction, messed up kids, etc and to be honest, to an extent I have a lot of sympathy for right wing conservative commentators who argue that the 'permissive society' has been very very bad for children, and for society in general.[/q]


while i agree that modern society has it's problems, i don't think most people wish to return to these halcyon days of yore, which were far more difficult than we probably understand. if anything, rates of domestic violence, alcohol abuse, child abuse, etc., have dropped.
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:46 PM   #94
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All of these are legitimate points, in and of themselves, and most of it is probably correct, but once again you seem to have ignored the positive reasons why the contract of marriage might have historically developed into such an important position in society - for example, as I previously mentioned, the benefits as regards bringing up children in a reasonably stable environment, the benefits for woman that their husbands were required to stay loyal - and vice versa for men, that their wives were expected to stay loyal - and also, if we go far back, in history, if we go back to tribal societies, that in a sense, women were protected by marriage, in terms of, for example, not being carried off by the neighbouring tribe, or whatever. So it could certainly be argued, in early tribal societies, that marriage protected women.

When you state 'women were the means to that ends' - yes, of course they were A means to that end, and SO WERE MEN. Men, also, were a means to the end of a stable society - a society founded on strictly observed social contracts, ritual, defined roles for men and women, etc. These may well be outdated concepts and no longer useful in today's society, but we'd be foolish to deny the very good reasons - at the time - why they evolved in the way that they did.
Yeah.

And now we move on.
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:48 PM   #95
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Yeah.

And now we move on.
So, are you agreeing with my analysis?
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:50 PM   #96
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We have reaped our bitter harvest of the 1960's permissive revolution - we have higher suicide rates, drug addiction, messed up kids, etc, and to be honest, to an extent I have a lot of sympathy for right wing conservative commentators who argue that the 'permissive society' has been very very bad for children, and for society in general.
The 60s were an amazing time of growth for women. We were able to shrug off the male dominance in marriage, work, politics and society in general. I'll take it, and its "bitter harvest" over the repressive, prejudicial, oppressive, stringent, paternal past it replaced any day. Those commentators miss their hegemony, that's all.
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:51 PM   #97
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So, are you agreeing with my analysis?
Yeah. And saying it's time to stop clinging to the past just because it was comfortable for some.
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Old 03-06-2008, 09:54 PM   #98
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We have reaped our bitter harvest of the 1960's permissive revolution - we have higher suicide rates, drug addiction, messed up kids, etc, and to be honest, to an extent I have a lot of sympathy for right wing conservative commentators who argue that the 'permissive society' has been very very bad for children, and for society in general.

But I've absolutely nothing against gay marriage per se, and I look forward to voting in favour of it when and if there is a referendum in Ireland on that matter, and I'm pleased to report that just 12 years after homosexuality was decriminalised in Ireland, steps are being taken to legislate for civil contracts for gay couples.
Well this ignores so many other factors, i.e. pseudoscience. And you're right it has NOTHING to do with gay marriage.
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Old 03-06-2008, 10:17 PM   #99
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Originally posted by martha
The 60s were an amazing time of growth for women. We were able to shrug off the male dominance in marriage, work, politics and society in general. I'll take it, and its "bitter harvest" over the repressive, prejudicial, oppressive, stringent, paternal past it replaced any day. Those commentators miss their hegemony, that's all.
It's all so simple really, isn't it?

Rejoice in the good news that the '60's revolution has rescued us all from our repressive, prejudicial, oppressive, stringent, paternal past, alleluia.

I must admit, I envy anyone that can view the world in such a simplistic way.

And they say CONSERVATIVES don't do nuance
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Old 03-06-2008, 10:20 PM   #100
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Yeah. And saying it's time to stop clinging to the past just because it was comfortable for some.
Yeah, men had it pretty fucking good in tribal societies!

I mean, all they had to do was go out and kill a few animals, war with neighbouring tribes, and sometimes be brutally killed by opposing tribes while trying to protect their wives and families!


Lucky, lucky bastards!

They had it so fucking easy!
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Old 03-06-2008, 10:30 PM   #101
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Yeah, men had it pretty fucking good in tribal societies!

I mean, all they had to do was go out and kill a few animals, war with neighbouring tribes, and sometimes be brutally killed by opposing tribes while trying to protect their wives and families!
Aren't they still doing the same things today... by choice?
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Old 03-06-2008, 11:08 PM   #102
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I am neither offended by you nor scared of you, and I'm at a loss to think where such a perception would derive from.

Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy


It's all so simple really, isn't it?

Rejoice in the good news that the '60's revolution has rescued us all from our repressive, prejudicial, oppressive, stringent, paternal past, alleluia.

I must admit, I envy anyone that can view the world in such a simplistic way.

And they say CONSERVATIVES don't do nuance
Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy



Yeah, men had it pretty fucking good in tribal societies!

I mean, all they had to do was go out and kill a few animals, war with neighbouring tribes, and sometimes be brutally killed by opposing tribes while trying to protect their wives and families!


Lucky, lucky bastards!

They had it so fucking easy!
Are you pretending to not get it? Or does it make you big and important to consistently miss the point of nearly everything I post? You must be fun to converse with in real life. Or have women just stopped talking to you altogether?
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Old 03-06-2008, 11:22 PM   #103
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It's really an awful pity that you can't engage in debate without resorting to your usual misandrist bullshit.
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Old 03-06-2008, 11:28 PM   #104
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It's really an awful pity that you can't engage in debate without resorting to your usual misandrist bullshit.
And you your usual misogynist bullshit.
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Old 03-06-2008, 11:30 PM   #105
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How original.
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