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Old 03-06-2008, 07:25 PM   #61
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar


But this doesn't matter one bit. It doesn't matter in the biblical definition and it doesn't matter in a legal definition.
Only if you set aside the historical and cultural reasons why marriage arose in the first place.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:28 PM   #62
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Only if you set aside the historical and cultural reasons why marriage arose in the first place.
Ownership of women, consolidation of property, etc.

And before you get yer boxers in a bunch, please go back and reread all the old threads on this topic, where people OTHER than me have posted articles backing me up.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:28 PM   #63
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Well, of course there are indeed plenty of heterosexual couples who get married without intending to have kids.
Exactly. We're just like the gay couples.

Or not, because many of them have kids already.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:32 PM   #64
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Originally posted by financeguy


You're never prepared to give any conservative argument the benefit of the doubt, are you?

Conservatives' motives are ALWAYS suspect, aren't they, because, hey, they're probably only making up arguments to hide their deep-seated homophobia and hatred of all things good, liberal, progressive and true.
Look back at the two paragraphs I quoted when I said that, it's the textbook definition of a double standard, forgive me for being passionate about calling that out.

And as far as this whole "all conservatives are suspect" bullshit, you've tried to call me out on it before, it isn't going to work. If you come to me with an argument that is based on logic and reasoning I will always be willing to discuss the issue with you. If you come to me with pseudo-science, status quo, emotional response only, or what you heard on a blog, then you aren't going to get a whole lot of respect.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:35 PM   #65
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Only if you set aside the historical and cultural reasons why marriage arose in the first place.
Did you read my post? I spoke about two definitions, the two that are brought up all the time in this debate, only one that should. And neither of those mention children.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:35 PM   #66
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Originally posted by martha
Ownership of women, consolidation of property, etc.
Wow. That's straight from the Andrea Dworkin 'Great Big Book of Bad Men and How They Oppressed Us for Millennia' school of thought.

Quote:
Originally posted by martha
And before you get yer boxers in a bunch, please go back and reread all the old threads on this topic, where people OTHER than me have posted articles backing me up.
I will, if I have time. But I seriously doubt that these articles conclusively prove that 'ownership' of women and consolidation of property were the only factors in the historical development of marriage.

If I were going to read up on the cultural and historical reasons for the development of marriage, I'd probably read someone like Roger Scruton - http://www.nationalreview.com/flashb...0602140942.asp (though I certainly wouldn't agree with him on everything).
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:46 PM   #67
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Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
And as far as this whole "all conservatives are suspect" bullshit, you've tried to call me out on it before, it isn't going to work.
You're right, I did try and call you on it before. We'll agree to differ on how effective my 'calling out' was. I'd argue that actually it was a reasonably fair 'calling out', and incidentally a contributor who I've previously strongly disagreed with on this forum PM'd me expressing agreement with what I'd said.

Quote:
Originally posted by BonoVoxSupastar
If you come to me with an argument that is based on logic and reasoning I will always be willing to discuss the issue with you. If you come to me with pseudo-science, status quo, emotional response only, or what you heard on a blog, then you aren't going to get a whole lot of respect.

Now the second thing you've mentioned is interesting, and possibly unintentionally revealing. Are you suggesting that the status quo is always wrong? That arguments based on the status quo are always illegitimate?

Well, see, while I'd readily agree that arguments based PURELY on "This is the way things are" or "this is the way we do things, and that's it" are insufficient, I don't believe that arguments based on the status quo are always illegitimate, because I tend to believe there are often good historical and cultural reasons for why things are the way they are.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:48 PM   #68
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I will, if I have time. But I seriously doubt that these articles conclusively prove that 'ownership' of women and consolidation of property were the only factors in the historical development of marriage.
I looked for yolland's post on the subject, but quite honestly, I don't enough of a shit too look any further. You can be offended and scared of me and I really don't care anymore.


eta: You seem to think that feminist thinkers and authors are bad and to be mocked. That it somehow makes you more legitimate and me less so to "accuse" me of thinking like they do. If that makes you feel better, then go ahead.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:48 PM   #69
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Originally posted by financeguy
because I tend to believe there are often good historical and cultural reasons for why things are the way they are.
At times, yes. This isn't one of those times.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:51 PM   #70
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Originally posted by financeguy


You're right, I did try and call you on it before. We'll agree to differ on how effective my 'calling out' was. I'd argue that actually it was a reasonably fair 'calling out', and incidentally a contributor who I've previously strongly disagreed with on this forum PM'd me expressing agreement with what I'd said.
To each it's own...



Quote:
Originally posted by financeguy

Now the third thing you've mentioned is interesting, and possibly unintentionally revealing. Are you suggesting that the status quo is always wrong? That arguments based on the status quo are always illegitimate?

Well, see, while I'd readily agree that arguments based PURELY on "This is the way things are" or "this is the way we do things, and that's it" are insufficient, I don't believe that arguments based on the status quo are always illegitimate, because I tend to believe there are often good historical and cultural reasons for why things are the way they are.
Status quo can be used to help back up a point, or as example, but never as reasoning.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:54 PM   #71
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Originally posted by martha
I looked for yolland's post on the subject, but quite honestly, I don't enough of a shit too look any further. You can be offended and scared of me and I really don't care anymore.
I am neither offended by you nor scared of you, and I'm at a loss to think where such a perception would derive from.
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Old 03-06-2008, 07:56 PM   #72
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I am neither offended by you nor scared of you, and I'm at a loss to think where such a perception would derive from.
Every time I bring up a feminist point, you are much too quick to take offense and belittle it, fell threatened by it, and discount its legitimacy.
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Old 03-06-2008, 08:02 PM   #73
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Originally posted by martha
eta: You seem to think that feminist thinkers and authors are bad and to be mocked. That it somehow makes you more legitimate and me less so to "accuse" me of thinking like they do. If that makes you feel better, then go ahead.
Actually, it isn't that. It's more that you appear to view feminism as being utterly above criticism, whilst I tend to be sceptical of philosophies or movements that put themselves as above criticism.

If someone is going to claim that marriage derives historically exclusively from a male desire to 'own women', then yes, I'll disagree with such a view, as I'd tend to feel that such a view derives from bad logic and bad history.
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Old 03-06-2008, 08:07 PM   #74
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Originally posted by martha
Every time I bring up a feminist point, you are much too quick to take offense and belittle it, fell threatened by it, and discount its legitimacy.
Basically, that's simply incorrect.

Having said that, if you had, for example, started your post by stating, for example, 'I believe that marriage arose historically as a vehicle for men to own women and acquire property' or 'I agree with the well known feminist writer who theorised that marriage principally derived from male oppression of women', you might come across as someone who was capable of listening to differing points of view from your own - which currently, to me at least, you don't.

It's just that you often put forward your analysis as FACT (much like Bonovosupastar, frankly).
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Old 03-06-2008, 08:12 PM   #75
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It's just that you often put forward your analysis as FACT .
So if I find time to locate a piece that supports my view, you'd treat it as legitimate? Even if it was written by a :gasp: feminist?
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