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Old 07-16-2008, 08:01 PM   #211
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I'll pass that on to the posters who have long since been intimidated into silence on this topic as well as the great majority of Americans and BOTH presidential candidates.
If being intimidated into silence means that we don't have to listen to people who wish to relegate our gay and lesbian friends and family to second class citizenry status, then I gotta say I'm not losing any sleep over it.

I cannot believe this is even a "topic" - appalling, shocking, offensive. Thankfully, time is on the side of equality here.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:03 PM   #212
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So in some circumstances, you think it's acceptable to intimidate people into silence?
Of course it is, assuming that such intimidation is done rhetorically, and not legislatively nor violently.

Freedom of speech does mean that bigots can have their voice, but it also means that others have the right to shout them down.

Be that as it may, law is also not determined by populism either. A mature democracy protects the human and civil rights of the minority, in addition to the majority, and the U.S. Constitution and subsequent amendments have ample examples of this.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:03 PM   #213
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So in some circumstances, you think it's acceptable to intimidate people into silence?
I'm not martha, but frankly, I do.

If somebody is too intimidated to stand on a street corner hurling anti-Semitic insults or racial slurs or somebody is too intimidated to call teenagers who are already mercilessly bullied "faggots" in the classroom - you bet your ass that works for me.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:06 PM   #214
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I'm not martha, but frankly, I do.

If somebody is too intimidated to stand on a street corner hurling anti-Semitic insults or racial slurs or somebody is too intimidated to call teenagers who are already mercilessly bullied "faggots" in the classroom - you bet your ass that works for me.
Do you believe that those scenarios are equivalent to the point Indy500 raised - namely, posters on FYM who disagree with the (on FYM) majority verdict on an issue being intimidated into silence?
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:07 PM   #215
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The opposition in both circumstances seems to be primarily based on religious bigotry and erroneous stereotypes.
Gender Melon. The difference between women and men is not a stereotype. Equal but very, very different.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:12 PM   #216
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Gender Melon. The difference between women and men is not a stereotype. Equal but very, very different.
Well, we've heard elsewhere on the forum that gender is nothing but a construct.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:12 PM   #217
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Thats irrelevant to consensual sex and entering into a marriage contract. There is another side to the argument, but not a single argument trumps equality under the law and the right of people to consensually enter into relationships with whom they want without fear of state discrimination. The anti-gay side will loose, reactionary political movements can't cling forever.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:15 PM   #218
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Well, we've heard elsewhere on the forum that gender is nothing but a construct.
And thats a red herring. I don't think it matters if some posters treat gender as a social construct to the question at hand? Biological or social determinism for sexuality don't inform a question of marriage rights.

Even if people chose to have gay relationships they ought be given equal protection and recognition by the state.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:17 PM   #219
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I'm not martha, but frankly, I do.

If somebody is too intimidated to stand on a street corner hurling anti-Semitic insults or racial slurs or somebody is too intimidated to call teenagers who are already mercilessly bullied "faggots" in the classroom - you bet your ass that works for me.
Can I co-opt this answer?

Cos I like it.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:20 PM   #220
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namely, posters on FYM who disagree with the (on FYM) majority verdict on an issue being intimidated into silence?

They're not "intimidated into silence." They have no arguments against it except religious hysteria. If that's all they got, they get shouted down in a discussion about civil rights.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:20 PM   #221
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Gender Melon. The difference between women and men is not a stereotype. Equal but very, very differnent.
In a secular democracy, "gender" is not a factor in determining whether one is able to enter into a mutual contract. Since marriage is primarily a legal and secular agreement in Western civilization, the perceived difference between women and men is irrelevant.

Secondly, if we are to argue, for a moment, on the religious significance of marriage in Western civilization, let's remember that "religious freedom" has wide latitudes here. "Marriage" is defined any number of ways, depending on the religious faith or even specific denominations. If we are to argue the religious dimension of marriage and say that it should have bearing on the secular definition of it, then whose definition should be included? Islam allows for one man, three women and gives men wide latitude to divorce freely, while not granting women the same. The FLDS has a religious support for underage polygamy. If we are to determine who should and should not marry, based on conservative Christian views on marriage, then why shouldn't these perspectives be included?

Instead, as I said before, marriage is defined in Western civilization according to secular values of mutual consent and equality, and has done so for decades. France, as an example, does not recognize religious marriages at all; you can have your ceremony at any church, synagogue, or mosque that you like, but you still won't have a legal marriage until you go to the courthouse. And, ultimately, U.S. marriage laws are equally secularly determined, and religions are free to recognize or deny any state-recognized marriage that they like. The Roman Catholic Church, for instance, does not recognize any non-Catholic marriages; in their eyes, all married Protestant Christians are not married and, instead, are living in mass fornication. The state recognition of gay marriage, likewise, will not prevent the Catholic Church from refusing to recognize gay marriages, just as they refuse to recognize Protestant marriages that are performed daily, and nor will it prevent all conservative Christian churches from denying gay marriages, as well.

This is ultimately why opposition to gay marriage is equated with bigotry; from the point of view of freedom, logic, and reason, it is.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:25 PM   #222
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If being intimidated into silence means that we don't have to listen to people who wish to relegate our gay and lesbian friends and family to second class citizenry status, then I gotta say I'm not losing any sleep over it.

I cannot believe this is even a "topic" - appalling, shocking, offensive. Thankfully, time is on the side of equality here.
So opposition to gay marriage = segregated lunch counters?

I know you don't want to believe this, I know it's just easier label opinions you don't agree with as bigotry, but it is quite possible to intellectually and morally oppose same-sex marriage while affirming the equal humanity of homosexuals.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:25 PM   #223
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They're not "intimidated into silence." They have no arguments against it except religious hysteria. If that's all they got, they get shouted down in a discussion about civil rights.
At the risk of repetition:-

http://forum.interference.com/f199/m...184871-12.html
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:26 PM   #224
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So opposition to gay marriage = segregated lunch counters?
FINALLY! Now you see it!

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but it is quite possible to intellectually and morally oppose same-sex marriage while affirming the equal humanity of homosexuals.
No, it isn't. You want to think so, but it isn't.
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Old 07-16-2008, 08:28 PM   #225
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I don't know what you mean?
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