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Old 07-07-2008, 03:49 PM   #181
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Old 07-07-2008, 03:58 PM   #182
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gay people can't be homophobic bigots.

and black people can't be racist.

... but, that said, i really have no idea what Raimondo is trying to say here. there have always been "anti-assimilationist" elements of what's known as the gay community. this is nothing new. and if this is how Raimondo sees himself -- that his sexual orientation is an attempt to tweak the culture at large, to underscore it's hypocrisies and highlight it's prejudices -- well, that's perfectly fine. his views aren't terribly different from many heterosexual feminists or anti-establishment types.

i'm not sure how well it holds up as an argument *against* marriage equality. and i don't see how he advances his cause with paragraphs like this:

[q]Lesbians can, and do, get pregnant: they raise children, thousands of whom are presently alive and kicking. In San Francisco, they make up a significant—and growing—part of the public school population. Lesbians, therefore, fit into the procreative model of marriage, even though they cannot reproduce without the passive participation of men who donate sperm. Gay men, on the other hand, are … men, and no man really wants to get married.

Promiscuity and its attendant attitudes go hand-in-hand with maleness: it’s our genetic and socially constructed legacy, imprinted on our very nature and invincible to the assaults of both politically correct feminists and puritans of the Right. Monogamy and maleness are opposites in a dichotomy: the idea of sexual fidelity is distinctively feminine, linked as it is with an overwhelming (and inherent) need for security and certainty – that is, the certainty that the father of her children will assist in their proper rearing. The collapse of this socio-sexual compact, which undergirds our civilization, is behind the inner city’s descent into barbarism, where roving bands of undisciplined fatherless males have been unleashed, wreaking havoc and filling the prisons.

[/q]

i know quite a few heterosexual men who would be quite offended by this, and it's also demonstrably untrue and an example of journalism at it's absolute worst -- the taking of a few generalizations and ballooning them to create a monocausal explanation for a host of behavior that could be charitably described as complex.

and when he writes something like this ...

[q]This gay male aversion to marriage is prefigured in the rate of domestic partnerships—intended as a precursor of gay marriage—in urban gay ghettos. Even fewer will sign up for that trip to the altar, especially when it dawns on them that with the right to marry comes a few responsibilities, particularly of a financial nature.[/q]

he just comes off like a bitter old queen.
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Old 07-07-2008, 04:49 PM   #183
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^

So there are self-loathing gay men?!
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:09 PM   #184
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^

So there are self-loathing gay men?!


more than a few.

also, gay men who contradict themselves, wildly when they write this ...

[q]To the gay activists of the modern era, with their dogma of biological determinism – the “gay gene—and their ingrained egalitarianism, such an argument is inconceivable. For them, there is no choice involved: they fervently believe they are genetically determined to engage in homosexual acts.[/q]

and then writes in another article ...

[q]I don’t care one whit about Rudy Giuliani’s private life, although I have a hard time believing the evangelicals are quite ready for the rutting Rudy. He is, after all, an Italian male, with certain impulses wired into his brain, particularly that part of it that rules the sexual imagination. I say, more power to him in that department – life, as the Italians know, is to be enjoyed, rather than endured.[/q]


i mean, honestly ...
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:17 PM   #185
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I don’t care one whit about Rudy Giuliani’s private life...
He is, after all, an Italian male, with certain impulses wired into his brain...

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i mean, honestly ...





that baby went missing
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:34 PM   #186
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i mean, honestly ...
Top-notch journalism to feed the "threatened" majority.
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:48 PM   #187
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Yes, on the one hand he argues against the existence of a genetic predisposition for homosexuality, on the other hand he points out that males are allegedly by genetic not monogamous and promiscuitive.
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:51 PM   #188
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Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
more than a few.

also, gay men who contradict themselves, wildly when they write this ...

[q]To the gay activists of the modern era, with their dogma of biological determinism – the “gay gene—and their ingrained egalitarianism, such an argument is inconceivable. For them, there is no choice involved: they fervently believe they are genetically determined to engage in homosexual acts.[/q]

and then writes in another article ...

[q]I don’t care one whit about Rudy Giuliani’s private life, although I have a hard time believing the evangelicals are quite ready for the rutting Rudy. He is, after all, an Italian male, with certain impulses wired into his brain, particularly that part of it that rules the sexual imagination. I say, more power to him in that department – life, as the Italians know, is to be enjoyed, rather than endured.[/q]


i mean, honestly ...

That's pretty weak, Irvine. For a start, even if the paragraph about Rudy Giuliani's alleged sexual prowess is meant to be taken seriously (which I doubt) it doesn't contradict his other point.

Second, it's fairly obvious that he isn't being entirely serious with those comments. Raimondo is - like Giuiliani - of Italian descent so surely entitled to make 'nudge-nudge wink-wink' jokes regarding stereotypes about Italian males.
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:54 PM   #189
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Top-notch journalism to feed the "threatened" majority.
Considering how unpopular most of his stances are with most self-styled conservatives, the implication that he has all of a sudden decided to curry favour with a 'threatened' majority is not worthy of any credence whatsoever.
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Old 07-07-2008, 05:58 PM   #190
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That's pretty weak, Irvine. For a start, even if the paragraph about Rudy Giuliani's alleged sexual prowess is meant to be taken seriously (which I doubt) it doesn't contradict his other point.

it does totally contradict his point.


Quote:
Second, it's fairly obvious that he isn't being entirely serious with those comments. Raimondo is - like Giuiliani - of Italian descent so surely entitled to make 'nudge-nudge wink-wink' jokes regarding stereotypes about Italian males.

so we can surmise that he doesn't want to be taken seriously? this isn't on par with, say, Obama criticizing black men for high rates of illegitimacy amongst african-american children. there are statistics that back that up. it's a well documented social problem attributed to a whole host of factors.

all he's saying is that gay men are men and men like to fuck. and italian men really like to fuck. it's in their genes. they can't help themselves.

and this is based on ... what, exactly?
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:01 PM   #191
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and italian men really like to fuck. it's in their genes. they can't help themselves.

and this is based on ... what, exactly?
The Italian gene? I know who once had a monopoly on "race genetic testing".
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:06 PM   #192
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financeguy, what's your opinion of Raimondo's take on marriage?
[q]Marriage is all about children: otherwise, there is no real reason for it, and especially not in the modern world, where internet hook-ups, de facto polygamy, and rampant promiscuity are widely accepted. It is, in short, an economic institution, a financial framework for the bringing up of a new generation. Marriage is an agreement between two adults that they will, together, provide for the needs of their offspring, and, indeed, when the time comes, pass on their accumulated wealth.

This is not to say that childless marriages aren’t really marriages, or that all the emotional and psychological trappings of traditional marriage–monogamy, commitment, and, yes, love—are irrelevant. I am here talking about the civil institution of marriage, as it has evolved in the English-speaking world, and not the cultural phenomenon that has evolved over many millennia—something not created but rather co-opted by the State.

...Pagilia is right. Marriage is not a civil institution but a religious-cultural tradition that the State has (so far) been forced to respect and recognize—and it is centered around procreation, which is not an issue most homosexuals have to deal with.[/q]
...and his view of male sexuality?
[q]Promiscuity and its attendant attitudes go hand-in-hand with maleness: it’s our genetic and socially constructed legacy, imprinted on our very nature and invincible to the assaults of both politically correct feminists and puritans of the Right. Monogamy and maleness are opposites in a dichotomy: the idea of sexual fidelity is distinctively feminine, linked as it is with an overwhelming (and inherent) need for security and certainty – that is, the certainty that the father of her children will assist in their proper rearing.[/q]
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:09 PM   #193
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it does totally contradict his point.

No it doesn't. Two separate issues. At the risk of repetition:-

Quote:
To the gay activists of the modern era, with their dogma of biological determinism – the “gay gene—and their ingrained egalitarianism, such an argument is inconceivable. For them, there is no choice involved: they fervently believe they are genetically determined to engage in homosexual acts. In this view, sexual orientation is like gender and race. In the context of the society in which we live, this means that it is—or ought to be—illegal to “discriminate” on the basis of sexual orientation, in the same way and for the same reasons it is now a hate crime to consider matters of race, religion, and gender in the realm of housing, employment, and socio-economic relations in general.
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:11 PM   #194
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financeguy, what's your opinion of Raimondo's take on marriage?
[q]Marriage is all about children: otherwise, there is no real reason for it, and especially not in the modern world, where internet hook-ups, de facto polygamy, and rampant promiscuity are widely accepted. It is, in short, an economic institution, a financial framework for the bringing up of a new generation. Marriage is an agreement between two adults that they will, together, provide for the needs of their offspring, and, indeed, when the time comes, pass on their accumulated wealth.

This is not to say that childless marriages aren’t really marriages, or that all the emotional and psychological trappings of traditional marriage–monogamy, commitment, and, yes, love—are irrelevant. I am here talking about the civil institution of marriage, as it has evolved in the English-speaking world, and not the cultural phenomenon that has evolved over many millennia—something not created but rather co-opted by the State.

...Pagilia is right. Marriage is not a civil institution but a religious-cultural tradition that the State has (so far) been forced to respect and recognize—and it is centered around procreation, which is not an issue most homosexuals have to deal with.[/q]
...and his view of male sexuality?
[q]Promiscuity and its attendant attitudes go hand-in-hand with maleness: it’s our genetic and socially constructed legacy, imprinted on our very nature and invincible to the assaults of both politically correct feminists and puritans of the Right. Monogamy and maleness are opposites in a dichotomy: the idea of sexual fidelity is distinctively feminine, linked as it is with an overwhelming (and inherent) need for security and certainty – that is, the certainty that the father of her children will assist in their proper rearing.[/q]
I agree with his take on marriage. His claim that all males are driven to be promiscuous is too simplistic.
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Old 07-07-2008, 06:28 PM   #195
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His claim that all males are driven to be promiscuous is too simplistic.
I agree. Likewise, the number of women who cheat on their children's fathers/husbands/partners would seem to raise considerable problems for his claim that women have an overwhelming drive to be monogamous.
Quote:
I agree with his take on marriage.
So, would it be an overreach to surmise that you have objections to the idea of gay (and lesbian?) marriage, and that those objections follow largely from a conviction that marriage should be exclusively reserved for fertile heterosexual couples who intend to have and raise children together?
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