Margaret Thatcher and the new conservatism (from 1975)

[mama cass]

here's an interesting article:

Margaret Thatcher and misapplied death etiquette | Glenn Greenwald | Comment is free | guardian.co.uk

i couldn't begin to pretend to know or understand Thatcher's influence on the UK or the world as a whole. but i will say that i find the UK a vibrant, fascinating place with one of the world's truly great cities at it's core, and i can't help but think that she had at least something to do with the country's seemingly successful post-war, post-Empire realignment/reassessment.

surely she can't be all bad?

I'm having this problem too. Not knowing much about her, and still not understanding what conservatism and socialism really mean despite studying them for a semester this year, it's hard to get a gauge. The left are painting her as an evil witch, and the right are lauding her as one of the world's greatest leaders.

Irvine511 and cobl, here are a few reasons, taken from the article in the above link (the Falklands war was another of her terrible and brutal mistakes which isn't mentioned below):

Whatever else may be true of her, Thatcher engaged in incredibly consequential acts that affected millions of people around the world. She played a key role not only in bringing about the first Gulf War but also using her influence to publicly advocate for the 2003 attack on Iraq. She denounced Nelson Mandela and his ANC as "terrorists", something even David Cameron ultimately admitted was wrong. She was a steadfast friend to brutal tyrants such as Augusto Pinochet, Saddam Hussein and Indonesian dictator General Suharto ("One of our very best and most valuable friends"). And as my Guardian colleague Seumas Milne detailed last year, "across Britain Thatcher is still hated for the damage she inflicted – and for her political legacy of rampant inequality and greed, privatisation and social breakdown."

 

[Vlad n U 2]

Whoa, that Socialist Worker cover is appalling.

In what way? It seems pretty fair to me, not to mention the many, many workers who suffered under her rule.

 

[cobl04]

Nm

 

[Pearl]

It's a little odd to see some of the same people who decried those rejoicing at Osama's death taking great delight in Thatcher's death.

I agree. It sounds somewhat hypocritical.

Like here in America, right wingers were angry as hell when liberals bashed Reagan when he died. But guaranteed when Clinton or Obama pass away, conservatives will be dancing in the streets.

Basically, people aren't saying "respect the dead" here. They're asking everyone to feel the same way they do and anything not like theirs is invalid.

As I said, I think Thatcher should be given credit for being a powerful woman in a man's arena. She may not have done things that helped the world much, but she was tough and strong enough to get and stay where she was. Give credit when due?

But hey, I'm not British so I have no idea what it was like living under and after her premiership (is that what its called?).

 

[mama cass]

It's a little odd to see some of the same people who decried those rejoicing at Osama's death taking great delight in Thatcher's death.

who are you aiming that at cobl?

i'm not "taking great delight" in her death, more a weird sense of relief, of an oppression lifted - hard to explain really, but find it dishonest to shed fake tears for the old tyrant and jump on the bandwaggon eulogising her - i criticised her in life and her death doesn't change history...

and remember - Bin Laden was murdered - whether that was a good or bad thing, the celebratory aspect didn't sit well with me... i think the two situations are completely different, but hey, you can think it's all the same if you like

 

[mama cass]

As I said, I think Thatcher should be given credit for being a powerful woman in a man's arena.

i don't think anyone's denying that Pearl, heck, even i acknowledged that a couple of pages back...

 

[Pearl]

i don't think anyone's denying that Pearl, heck, even i acknowledged that a couple of pages back...

I didn't say anyone was and my comment was not directed at anyone in particular; it was a general comment.

 

[mama cass]

I didn't say anyone was and my comment was not directed at anyone in particular; it was a general comment.

ok, well, she has always been given credit for that particular achievement, of being a strong woman in a man's world, that's why i found your comment a bit odd... however, she certainly was not a feminist icon...

 

[u2popmofo]

It's a little odd to see some of the same people who decried those rejoicing at Osama's death taking great delight in Thatcher's death.

There is the absolute thinnest line separating what we think of as Conservatism and Liberalism in the West. In situations like these, it's blatantly obvious that both sides are full of the exact same type of shitty human beings who rejoice in bad things happening to anyone who doesn't agree with them.

 

[LemonMelon]

How influential could she have been in the year 2013 anyway? I mean, I don't live in Britain, so maybe I'm missing something, but she hasn't been a member of parliament in over 20 years. She still had a voice, but her death doesn't stop any orders from being made. It doesn't directly benefit the world in any meaningful way really, so I see no reason to feel upbeat about her death.

If the ideology she left behind died, that would be cool.

 

[purpleoscar]

I'm having this problem too. Not knowing much about her, and still not understanding what conservatism and socialism really mean despite studying them for a semester this year, it's hard to get a gauge. The left are painting her as an evil witch, and the right are lauding her as one of the world's greatest leaders.

Conservatives are trying to conserve what they think works well. The socialists want to make a better world and create better conditions. The error conservatives make is when they conserve things they shouldn't conserve and the error the socialists make is when they create programs that don't work and make things worse despite positive intentions. They both do a tug of war and the public has to decide for themselves whether they like one policy or another. As policies get adopted people tend to keep them if they like them. So there are narratives on both sides. There are also special interests both sides. Business types and managers won't criticize their side fairly and the same for government workers and unionized workers. Both sides will go for their self-interests all the way. The real achievements that Thatcher and Reagan will be remembered for is dealing a blow against communism which when it fell freed millions of people. They will also be remembered for supporting policies that reduced stagflation (Unemployment and inflation happening at the same time). Certainly Thatcher wasn't perfect on all fronts and these types didn't eliminate all social programs so those on the left who ushered in a welfare state have a victory in that conservatives won't want to repeal all programs.

So the challenge still stands: What are you trying to conserve and if you are trying to make the world better are the programs you proposing actually going to work? It's going to keep going like this ad infinitum.

 

[Vlad n U 2]

The real achievements that Thatcher and Reagan will be remembered for is dealing a blow against communism which when it fell freed millions of people.

Uh, no. How could they end something that wasn't there in the first place?

 

[deep]

many Eastern Europeans recognize her contributions

Bulgarian PM: Thatcher Battled for Eastern Europe's Freedom - Novinite.com - Sofia News Agency

 

[Pearl]

Uh, no. How could they end something that wasn't there in the first place?

It was considered to be communism by many.

I think you should start a thread about communism and how you see it. You bring it up a lot, so I'm curious about your beliefs - maybe others are too.

 

[cobl04]

It was considered to be communism by many.

I think you should start a thread about communism and how you see it. You bring it up a lot, so I'm curious about your beliefs - maybe others are too.

Be careful what you wish for...

 

[purpleoscar]

It was considered to be communism by many.

I think you should start a thread about communism and how you see it. You bring it up a lot, so I'm curious about your beliefs - maybe others are too.

I would be even more interested in how Vlad's system would be applied in real life with real people which is the ultimate test. Plato created a Utopia that in real life many would find a nightmare.

 

[deep]

what would the concept of true communism be like?
each person would have what they need, there would be sharing, no greed.

 

[Kieran McConville]

I'd just be guessing here that Vlad is alluding to the state of true communism involving the melting away of the state, a rather different situation to the centralised 'dictatorship of the proletariat' that eventuated in the twentieth century.

But you know what, you have to call it something.

Anyway, none of them deserve half as much credit as Gorbachev, the man who pressed the self-destruct button.

 

[Pearl]

Be careful what you wish for...

Yeah I know, but he keeps mentioning his version of communism so I would like to know what he really believes about it.

 

[INDY500]

God bless Lady Thatcher.

Rest in peace.

 

[Irvine511]

Can you say anything without slamming Obama?

I mean, honestly, its fine not to like him, bit its not like he's GWB or Nixon someone truly horrible.

 

[PhilsFan]

You would say that, of course, because you're a progressive. For every GWB and Nixon for us, there's someone awful like Obama and FDR for them.

 

[mama cass]

How influential could she have been in the year 2013 anyway? I mean, I don't live in Britain, so maybe I'm missing something, but she hasn't been a member of parliament in over 20 years. She still had a voice, but her death doesn't stop any orders from being made. It doesn't directly benefit the world in any meaningful way really, so I see no reason to feel upbeat about her death.

If the ideology she left behind died, that would be cool.

i think it's because she became such a contentious divisive figure in the UK... i don't think "upbeat" is the right way to describe it, not for me anyway, but the effects of her rule are still acutely felt - she single-handedly decimated local communities in the UK, stripped them of industry, trashed the unions and workers rights, took away their voice - there are no jobs now in these mining communities and there are so many young people who cannot find work - families had been going down the mines for generations then their whole livelihood was taken away from them - these people are still suffering from her legacy...

 

[Vlad n U 2]

It was considered to be communism by many.

I think you should start a thread about communism and how you see it. You bring it up a lot, so I'm curious about your beliefs - maybe others are too.

But you'll find many people didn't know what it actually was, much like conservatives and liberals alike today.

But you know what, you have to call it something.

It was obviously some form of capitalism, considering a class society was never abolished and the bureaucracy controlled the means of production as opposed to the workers.

Yeah I know, but he keeps mentioning his version of communism so I would like to know what he really believes about it.

My version?

My supposed 'version' is the only definition.

 

[mama cass]

Russell Brand's written an interesting and very thoughtful article about growing up in Thatcher's Britain - i normally find the guy irritating as a comedian, but some of his written articles aren't bad...

this bit made me chuckle:

"When I was a kid, Thatcher was the headmistress of our country." - that is exactly what it felt like - he was bang on!

i liked this bit too...

When I awoke today on LA time my phone was full of impertinent digital eulogies. It'd be disingenuous to omit that there were a fair number of ding-dong-style celebratory messages amidst the pensive reflections on the end of an era. Interestingly, one mate of mine, a proper leftie, in his heyday all Red Wedge and right-on punch-ups, was melancholy. "I thought I'd be overjoyed, but really it's just … another one bites the dust …" This demonstrates, I suppose, that if you opposed Thatcher's ideas it was likely because of their lack of compassion, which is really just a word for love. If love is something you cherish, it is hard to glean much joy from death, even in one's enemies.

and this bit:

It always struck me as peculiar, too, when the Spice Girls briefly championed Thatcher as an early example of girl power. I don't see that. She is an anomaly; a product of the freak-onomy of her time. Barack Obama, interestingly, said in his statement that she had "broken the glass ceiling for other women". Only in the sense that all the women beneath her were blinded by falling shards. She is an icon of individualism, not of feminism.

and, lastly, this bit:

I can't articulate with the skill of either of "the Marks" – Steel or Thomas – why Thatcher and Thatcherism were so bad for Britain but I do recall that even to a child her demeanour and every discernible action seemed to be to the detriment of our national spirit and identity. Her refusal to stand against apartheid, her civil war against the unions, her aggression towards our neighbours in Ireland and a taxation system that was devised in the dark ages, the bombing of a retreating ship – it's just not British.

that sums up my feelings exactly...

Russell Brand on Margaret Thatcher: 'I always felt sorry for her children' | Comment is free | The Guardian

 

[Vlad n U 2]

He is a really good writer.

 

[mama cass]

He is a really good writer.

yeah he's not bad at all! i remember reading an article he wrote on Amy Winehouse after she died, and it was so thoughtful and well written i was really surprised! this one is really good too - a lot of the things he said really resonate with me...

 

[mama cass]

Pretty sure some of those cover shots must be artful parodies. "Maggie Dead in Bed At Ritz"?

It is The Sun.

no no, that is in fact accurate - she indeed died at the Ritz - she had been living there for a while

 

[cobl04]

Russell Brand is an incredibly switched on dude. Most comedians are exceptionally smart. Great read.

 

[purpleoscar]

Can you say anything without slamming Obama?

I mean, honestly, its fine not to like him, bit its not like he's GWB or Nixon someone truly horrible.

"Don't slam our guy, but it's okay to slam your guys because OBVIOUSLY they deserve to be slammed. Our guys are nice people"

Total classic.