Mandatory Health Insurance part 3 - Page 9 - U2 Feedback

Go Back   U2 Feedback > Lypton Village > Free Your Mind
Click Here to Login
Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 03-28-2012, 05:19 PM   #121
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Swan269's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: HawkMoon
Posts: 3,694
Local Time: 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrsSpringsteen View Post
I don't know if you're being sarcastic there, seems like maybe? No offense to your step dad but I think the VA is terrible. Just knowing what I know about it from the care a family member has gotten there.

I don't trust the govt to do what's best for me, I've become very cynical about govt. But I do believe in universal/affordable health care. MA has had it for years, including a mandate, and it seems to be working fairly well.
What matters is that all people that work for the VA work very hard and care very much. He told me that the govt could give us the best health care in the world based on the model he worked with. From what I understood, it was a solvent healthy program that could easily be translated into a nation wide institiution. I don't care what it costs because the government will figure out how to spend our money wisely, it always does. If the people in office don't give us what we all want, we simply vote them out and start from scratch. I hate that the supreme court is deciding parts of this. It should just be Congress's decesion. They are the real voice of the people.
__________________

__________________
Swan269 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 05:35 PM   #122
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
think bigger.
Antonin Scalia addressed that as well:

‘‘The federal government is not supposed to be a government that has all powers; it’s supposed to be a government of limited powers. And that’s what all this questioning has been about. What is left? If the government can do this, what else can it not do?”
Quote:
if a mandate for private insurance isn't constitutional -- which, given this Citizens United Court, who can predict? -- then it becomes an argument for the utter indispensability of a single-payer system paid for via tax.

remember, the mandate was a conservative idea.
In response to Hillarycare, yes, some conservative think-tanks and politicians proposed the idea but it never had grassroots support. And it certainly doesn't mean it was a good idea (although I could argue some points in favor of something along those lines) or constitutional on a federal level.

I could remind you that Barack Obama was against a mandate as well in 2008 debates with Hillary Clinton but that would be mean.
__________________

__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 06:38 PM   #123
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
Antonin Scalia addressed that as well:

‘‘The federal government is not supposed to be a government that has all powers; it’s supposed to be a government of limited powers. And that’s what all this questioning has been about. What is left? If the government can do this, what else can it not do?”

setting aside a Scalia argument ... it's the mandate that's at issue, not universal health care itself.

"forcing" you to buy insurance may fall beyond the powers of government.

providing health care via taxes certainly does not. just ask the elderly, the poor, veterans, etc. unless you think that Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security are, too, unconstitutional.

as are the police, the fire department, roads, schools, or any other government service.





Quote:
I could remind you that Barack Obama was against a mandate as well in 2008 debates with Hillary Clinton but that would be mean.

that would mean, what? that Obama changed to acquiesce to political reality having to author the law essentially around Olympia Snowe because of insane Senators and Senate rules?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 07:19 PM   #124
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 01:22 AM
I kind of hate typing this, but, gosh, it does seem like Obama has set another political-judo trap.

He wins, he's validated.
He loses, he gets to run against mean Mr Scalia who just took away health care from 40m people and people with aids, cancer, Parkinson's, etc.

That should be even easier than Romney.
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 07:22 PM   #125
Blue Crack Addict
 
deep's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: A far distance down.
Posts: 28,501
Local Time: 10:22 PM
if it gets stuck down
then Romney will be the only one standing that was able to pass a healthcare plan that is popular and working

why not vote for the guy that can get the job done right?
__________________
deep is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 07:24 PM   #126
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Because he's spent the past 2 years violently disowning it. They just labeled him the "godfather" of the ACA.

There are no end to the layers and complexities of Obama-judo!
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 09:00 PM   #127
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
setting aside a Scalia argument ... it's the mandate that's at issue, not universal health care itself.

"forcing" you to buy insurance may fall beyond the powers of government.
Sure, Scalia was addressing the mandate in this quote but he would also recognize that our constitution is a constitution of negative rights -- a limited federal government -- as opposed to containing enumerated positives rights such as a universal right to health care.

Quote:
providing health care via taxes certainly does not. just ask the elderly, the poor, veterans, etc. unless you think that Medicaid, Medicare, and Social Security are, too, unconstitutional.

as are the police, the fire department, roads, schools, or any other government service.
And how much longer are most of those programs financially sustainable? Answer, without substantial benefit cuts, restructuring or increased tax burdens on the American people, not frickin' long.

The last thing I'm defending is the status quo. But what a tragically wasted opportunity to reform our health care delivery and payment system to use the free market to encourage greater efficiency, cost control, increase accessibility and improve outcomes. What a wasted opportunity to put individuals and physicians back in charge of health care decisions rather than insurance companies, employers or politicians.

There was another direction to go.

Quote:
that would mean, what? that Obama changed to acquiesce to political reality having to author the law essentially around Olympia Snowe because of insane Senators and Senate rules?
Well I guess they're only insane Senators and Senate rules when they stand athwart liberal utopianism just as the Court is only acting politically when it limits the scope of government -- creating new rights and governmental responsibilities being strictly proper, "sane" and apolitical.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 09:22 PM   #128
Blue Crack Addict
 
anitram's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Location: NY
Posts: 16,290
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500

The last thing I'm defending is the status quo.

.
What has your side come up with as a viable alternative?
__________________
anitram is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 09:28 PM   #129
Blue Crack Addict
 
Moonlit_Angel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: In a dimension known as the Twilight Zone...do de doo doo, do de doo doo...
Posts: 19,269
Local Time: 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by INDY500 View Post
he would also recognize that our constitution is a constitution of negative rights -- a limited federal government
Tell you what, when the conservatives get themselves straightened out on what they think constitutes "limited federal government", then we'll talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
setting aside a Scalia argument
I was going to say, I remember hearing Scalia's views here and there over the years on various issues. I also seem to recall finding those views...eesh.
__________________
Moonlit_Angel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-28-2012, 09:50 PM   #130
Rock n' Roll Doggie
Band-aid
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: The American Resistance
Posts: 4,754
Local Time: 12:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by anitram View Post
What has your side come up with as a viable alternative?
Health Saving Accounts. They were in the Medicare part D bill.

Protection from catastrophic costs, lower premiums, lower costs for my employer, same preventative care benefits, my personal contributions are "pre-tax" and if I don't use the money for health care needs it builds up and can eventually be passed on in inheritance like any other savings account.

I'm a more cost-conscious consumer than someone paying a $10 copay for everything that's for sure.
__________________
INDY500 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:13 AM   #131
Blue Crack Supplier
 
Irvine511's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 30,492
Local Time: 01:22 AM
Do you think a HSA is going to last long if you get bone cancer?
__________________
Irvine511 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 12:19 AM   #132
BVS
Blue Crack Supplier
 
BVS's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: between my head and heart
Posts: 40,684
Local Time: 12:22 AM
HSAs are awesome if you're healthy and fairly well off.
__________________
BVS is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 07:24 AM   #133
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Swan269's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: HawkMoon
Posts: 3,694
Local Time: 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Irvine511 View Post
I kind of hate typing this, but, gosh, it does seem like Obama has set another political-judo trap.

He wins, he's validated.
He loses, he gets to run against mean Mr Scalia who just took away health care from 40m people and people with aids, cancer, Parkinson's, etc.

That should be even easier than Romney.
no just Scailia, but 5 of the Supreme Court, the conservatives in Congress, religious leaders, conservative people, insurance companies, the deficit, fox news, o'reily, glenn beck. so much blame to go around. just let obama rule us for gods sake. our country would be the best in the world if we just modeled our health care after Europe.
__________________
Swan269 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 07:25 AM   #134
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Swan269's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: HawkMoon
Posts: 3,694
Local Time: 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by deep View Post
if it gets stuck down
then Romney will be the only one standing that was able to pass a healthcare plan that is popular and working

why not vote for the guy that can get the job done right?
no way, he flip flops all the time.

obama has stuck to his guns and promised us change. its what everyone wants right?
__________________
Swan269 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-29-2012, 07:27 AM   #135
Rock n' Roll Doggie
 
Swan269's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2000
Location: HawkMoon
Posts: 3,694
Local Time: 02:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BVS View Post
HSAs are awesome if you're healthy and fairly well off.
yeah right and even then you pay through the f'n nose and get nothing for it. Just let Medicare take care of the older folks for now, and let the rest of us get into a government program where I don't need to think about this anymore. The more the govt does for me the better.
__________________

__________________
Swan269 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 1
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Design, images and all things inclusive copyright © Interference.com