Man Arrested for Kissing Daughter in Public

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This article makes it sound like the behavior was not appropriate

Man nabbed for kissing his daughter

September 08 2009 at 05:31PM

Sao Paulo - An Italian man arrested in Brazil on suspicion of pedophilia for kissing his eight-year-old daughter in public has been admitted to hospital suffering symptoms of stress, media reported on Tuesday.

The 48-year-old businessman was arrested a week ago while on vacation in the northern city of Fortaleza after an elderly Brazilian couple saw him kiss his daughter while they were both in a hotel pool.

The couple thought the kiss, on the girl's mouth, and other signs of affection were "inappropriate" and alerted police, according to reports on the news websites G1, O Globo and Zero Hora.

The man, who was not named, was detained under a tough new Brazilian law introduced in August designed to clamp down on the sexual abuse of minors.

His Brazilian wife said she was near the pool at the time and insists the kiss was innocent.

The Italian was admitted to hospital on Sunday suffering high blood pressure and depression.

"We saw he was very tense, stressed and hadn't eaten. So we decided to get a doctor to look after him. After taking his blood pressure, the doctor decided he should be transferred to hospital for a series of tests," the man's lawyer, Flavio Jacinto, told Zero Hora.

Four witnesses at the hotel pool were questioned by police.

Two reportedly said that they, too, felt uncomfortable with the way the man was interacting with his daughter. One witness reportedly said the kiss was suspiciously lingering.

If convicted under the new law, the Italian could face up to 15 years in prison.
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AngelK said:
I'm not trying to create controversy, but i don't think it's silly at all... Do you really believe that a 3 or 4 year old child, for example, knows the difference?

I've worked with small children here in the US and whenever i tried to explain something wasn't a appropriate behavior, they would say "oh it's ok, daddy does it to me all the time" or "but mommy likes it when i do this to her"... So in their tinny little heads if it's ok to do something with mommy and daddy it's ok to do it with any other adult.

In Law School i also studied countless cases of molestation, with children as young as 2. Most of the cases it started with something innocent enough or something the mother or father didn't think was a big deal, then it escalated to full blown molestation or rape... Worse yet, a lot of the children didn't think there was something wrong at all because it was what they knew and were used to.

Parents need to create boundaries and respect going both ways... You can't have mixed messages or rules... You need to be clear and consistent on what's appropriate or not. There are some lines you just don't cross and, in my opinion, kissing children in the mouth is one of them.
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I disagree. Sure, a child as young as 2 or 3 cannot truly understand the concept of strangers and inappropriate touching, but it's our responsibility to constantly teach them and carefully monitor them. (Btw, as a 5 y/o victim of sexual molestation, I can attest that some children do understand that something is clearly wrong, but simply aren't able to stop it) But it doesn't mean a parent should refrain from showing affection on their child in the form of innocent kisses on the mouth. As a parent of three girls, I kiss them every single day. It's just something you do until the child grows out of it. My 9 y/o prefers hugs now, my 7 y/o wants the occasional kiss, and my 5 y/o will plant a 10 second kiss on me with a big smile and hug, and I love every minute of it.

It's easy to tell a child's affection apart from a child who clearly isn't comfortable with it. If anyone else would try to share a kiss with my children the way I do, the kids would look at me like that person had lost their mind. I'm not gonna give up these precious moments showering love on my children just because someone else doesn't agree with it. JMO
 
BVS said:
But was it inappropriate, or inappropriate according to a society that doesn't kiss their ckildren on the lips?
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Sure , we don't know for sure
but it's not like she was boarding a plane and he kissed her good bye
or was even kissing her goodnight at bed time

the reported inappropriate touching and prolonged mouth kissing in a pool make it seem more like something a man should not do with a child, it is not something I could ever imagine myself doing.

I have kissed women in pools and hot tubs many times, never a child.
I have kissed them good-bye and tucked them in bed with a kiss






The couple thought the kiss, on the girl's mouth, and other signs of affection were "inappropriate" and alerted police, according to reports on the news websites G1, O Globo and Zero Hora.

The man, who was not named, was detained under a tough new Brazilian law introduced in August designed to clamp down on the sexual abuse of minors.

His Brazilian wife said she was near the pool at the time and insists the kiss was innocent.

The Italian was admitted to hospital on Sunday suffering high blood pressure and depression.

"We saw he was very tense, stressed and hadn't eaten. So we decided to get a doctor to look after him. After taking his blood pressure, the doctor decided he should be transferred to hospital for a series of tests," the man's lawyer, Flavio Jacinto, told Zero Hora.

Four witnesses at the hotel pool were questioned by police.

Two reportedly said that they, too, felt uncomfortable with the way the man was interacting with his daughter. One witness reportedly said the kiss was suspiciously lingering.
Click to expand...


"It was not a father-daughter situation," one witness told the television channel TV Verdes Mares, saying the man had touched his daughter in a "hot" manner.
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Deep, where's the article from? What source?
 
Like you said, we'll never know.

and other signs of affection were "inappropriate"
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I have found, that when in a situation like this sometimes people will cover their tracks by saying "well it wasn't only that there were other things going on as well..." or "it wasn't just this time I've seen them more than once..." in order to come off not overreacting.

Two reportedly said that they, too, felt uncomfortable with the way the man was interacting with his daughter. One witness reportedly said the kiss was suspiciously lingering.
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But this once again can be a society thing.

I dated a girl once who was a fairly new transplant to TX and she once made a comment to me that she couldn't get over how many father's kiss their daughters here, or that my little neice would come over and just give me a kiss goodbye, or that when I greet my grandmother she gives me a kiss. She said this just wasn't done where she came from in the states. She first found it to be very inappropriate.
 
BVS said:
Like you said, we'll never know


that my little niece would come over and just give me a kiss goodbye,

or that when I greet my grandmother she gives me a kiss.
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a good-bye kiss or a greeting kiss,
I get (and give)

but would you ever get in the pool with your 8 year old niece and give her a lot of physical contact and a prolonged kiss on the mouth?
is not that what your girlfriend is for?

and if grandma made those moves on you in the pool
would you not be a bit surprised?
 
deep said:
but would you ever get in the pool with your 8 year old niece and give her a lot of physical contact and a prolonged kiss on the mouth?
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No, but with fathers it's different. Kisses just aren't for greetings and good-byes. At least that's how it is where I come from.

Now the concept of "prolonged" might be an issue, but to a society that isn't use to kissing on the lips, isn't any kiss prolonged? That's my point.
 
via ANSA (the Italian equivalent of AP):
Sao Paulo, September 11 -- An Italian man has been cleared of charges of groping his 8-year-old daughter in a Brazilian swimming pool, his lawyer told ANSA Friday. ''The case is closed for Brazilian justice,'' Flavio Jacinto Silva said. The lawyer stressed that the ''provisional'' nature of his client Giuliano Tuzi's release was a formality. ''Tuzi has been completely cleared and he can return to Italy when he wants.''

The businessman was arrested on Brazil's tough new paedophile laws ten days ago and faced 8-15 years in jail if charges of sexual molestation, brought on the testimony of two witnesses, were proved. The witnesses are reported to have claimed that ''more than just kisses'' were involved. Tuzi's Brazilian wife and his daughter rallied to his defence but one of the witnesses insisted she had thought ''the man and girl were lovers''. ''Even when they came out of the pool he carried on, kissing her twice on the lips,'' the witness was quoted as saying.

Tuzi was released two days after he suffered a dizzy spell in jail. Stress-related high blood pressure was later diagnosed. The man's lawyer said he was the victim of a ''gross'' miscarriage of justice. Brazilian prosecutors have been accused of being over-zealous in applying the new laws. Judicial sources say a shake-up is expected in the town of Fortaleza where Tuzi was arrested.

Tuzi told his lawyer he harboured no resentment against Brazil and voiced the hope the case would help the fight against paedophiles.
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I can't say any specifics about the article posted by the OP, but I definitely think society's backlash against pedophilia has gone too far. In school, the friendliest teachers are always joked about by kids as being pedophiles. I have a neighbor down the street who is very friendly and seems to genuinely love children, but he is also suspected to be a pedophile. I mean, if this were the internet I could see why a parent would be concerned, but fifty years ago, such genuinely friendly acts such as helping children home from the bus stop would not be viewed with such suspicion.

I mean...come on. Half the news stories we see nowadays deals with child molestation or child pornography or pedophilia or whatever. Is this really as big of an issue as we make it out to be?
 
yolland said:
via ANSA (the Italian equivalent of AP):
Click to expand...



The businessman was arrested on Brazil's tough new paedophile laws ten days ago and faced 8-15 years in jail if charges of sexual molestation, brought on the testimony of two witnesses, were proved. The witnesses are reported to have claimed that ''more than just kisses'' were involved. Tuzi's Brazilian wife and his daughter rallied to his defence but one of the witnesses insisted she had thought ''the man and girl were lovers''. ''Even when they came out of the pool he carried on, kissing her twice on the lips,'' the witness was quoted as saying.
Click to expand...


So this guy was kissing his daughter in the pool and when he got out of the pool, a couple more times on the mouth?


What is that 3 or 4 times in one hour?
and it was not a simple greeting or goodbye kiss.

3 times in one hour, on the mouth. that look like romantic kisses (for no reason)

how many a day is that?

perhaps 30 - 40 kisses a day from a grown man, on the mouth

BVS, would you call that normal behavior?

Will he still be doing this to her when she is 12? 14?
 
deep said:
So this guy was kissing his daughter in the pool and when he got out of the pool, a couple more times on the mouth?


What is that 3 or 4 times in one hour?
and it was not a simple greeting or goodbye kiss.

3 times in one hour, on the mouth. that look like romantic kisses (for no reason)

how many a day is that?

perhaps 30 - 40 kisses a day from a grown man, on the mouth

BVS, would you call that normal behavior?

Will he still be doing this to her when she is 12? 14?
Click to expand...

If that's true it really does seem a bit much, but your calculation there is a bit silly, to be honest.

A kiss on the lips, even by the father, wouldn't be that unusual or going too far. As long as it's just that. And when in a pool, playing together or coming out of that, I don't think you can conclude from there.
 
Vincent Vega said:
A kiss on the lips, even by the father, wouldn't be that unusual or going too far. As long as it's just that.
Click to expand...

nothing suggest that is was just that

the reports are that he was not treating her as father kissing a child
but holding and kissing her what appeared to be romantic embracing and touching
both in the pool and outside of the pool


it seems that everyone here wants to speculate his behavior is normal and fine

I could understand that if the mother was taking the child for a nap and he kissed her goodbye,
and Brazil had a strict law 'no adults kissing children on the mouth',
and he was charged for that one goodbye kiss

this guy seems odd, I don't think he is kissing the child for her benefit,
but he is doing this multiple kissing and touching/embracing for his own reasons

what benefit is it to the child?
will she be more comfortable kissing other grown men on the mouth now?
 
As I said, if it's true what the witnesses said it's questionable behaviour. But in the end everything remains speculation. Playing in the pool with a small girl might, to some, always look inappropriate. And in the end their accounts didn't justify his conviction.
I think all the news articles have been very vague on what he actually did. All the quotes are like, "Well, he did things to her I thought to be inappropriate." Yes, but what exactly? He kissed her on the lips multiple times. That's as specific as it gets. And that to the witnesses it seemed lingering etc. For me that wouldn't be enough information to conclude that he indeed is inappropriately treating his own daughter.
And kissing the own child repeatedly when having fun and playing around in a pool, honestly, isn't molestation.
I'm not saying he is innocent for sure. But neither could I say he is guilty. I dubio pro reo.
 
I really don't disagree with what you are saying

I do understand there are not grounds to convict him of any molestation, based on the reports

I think this whole incident was based on the choices he made.
I don't fault the Brazilian authorities for charging him, I believe the authorities should act with the protection of the child in mind first.

I support laws that protect children at the expense erroneously changing adults, that will be later let off, over
laws that protect grown men's questionable behavior at the expense of children being harmed

If this man were my friend or a member of my family I would strongly advise him not to kiss the daughter on the mouth in public

at her age, I think the better suggestion would be to kiss her on the cheek (side of the face)
 
Yes, it would have saved him much trouble if he were aware of the customs of the region and their sensibilities. I can't imagine him getting into any trouble had it happened in Italy. Though I cannot say for sure either.

I agree that the safety and well-being of children needs special protection, and may also trump the rights of adults.

And thanks for clarification where the cheek was located. ;)
 
The paranoia spreads:

Innocent Bath-Time Photos Get Kids Taken Away From Parents - ParentDish

Today's moment-of-pause has been brought to you by Wal-Mart and the city of Peoria, Az. Apparently, some photo-clerk vigilante, diligently on the lookout for child pornography, saw photos of kids during bath time and decided to call the cops, according to a story on Good Morning America.

Next thing the parents of these kids knew, the children were removed from their home. For an entire month. Mom got suspended from her job for a year and both -- Anthony and Lisa Demaree -- were added to a list of sex offenders. The judge in the case said the pix were harmless.

"I don't understand it at all," Anthony Demaree told GMA, with his wife by his side. "Ninety, 95 percent of the families out there in America have these exact same photos."

Now they've got another shot to take. This time it's directed at Wal-Mart and their hometown.
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Oh wow. I'm sure everyone has a pic of themselves in the bathtub when they were young. Does that mean all of our parents are perverts and collectors of child porn? :tsk:
 
I've always wondered how that works, with the photo issue and reporting things to the police. Are there specific guidelines or is it more subjective?

I would think that anyone who intended to take pornographic photos of children would use a digital camera and/or print them at home and not take a memory stick into a photo or printing center like these people did. Supposedly the police also watched family videotapes in which the kids were playing while naked-and they thought the young girl appeared to be posed in a "provocative manner" in the tub.

I saw an Oprah show last season about child pornography and they described what's in some of those photos-suffice it to say it is not kids in a bathtub.
 
MrsSpringsteen said:
I've always wondered how that works, with the photo issue and reporting things to the police. Are there specific guidelines or is it more subjective?
Click to expand...

I asked a friend who worked for a photo developing company and I think he said that they hang on to the negatives and call the police? I don't remember exactly, but there was some protocol for it.
 
I meant about the content of the photos themselves-what do they have to see in them or is it all in the eye of the beholder? It really begs that question when you say the child looks like they're posed in a "provocative manner".
 
Weird case. The judge said the picture looked "innocent", others say the child was posed in a "provocative manner", and they got added to the list of sex offenders. Then you have it on a website where it is questionable if they keep to journalistic standards, i.e. try to get a balanced and objective picture. After all, the article is written pretty much only from the parents' side. So well, without having seen the actual picture the article of course leaves the clear impression that some weird employee totally over-reacted and then authorities followed suit. But if that is really the case?
 
I read about this a couple of days ago online and I thought the reaction to the photos was interesting. And now what he has to say about it.

Photos here


Stephanie Seymour and Her Son Bond On the Beach - StyleList



Stephanie Seymour's son 17-year-old Peter Brant II has spoken out about the kissy-kissy photos of himself and his mother on the on the beach in St. Barts that surfaced last week.

Brant posted to his Facebook:

Now about this whole Beach kiss scandal I would just like to say it has been taken completely out of context and I don't appreciate speculation on my personal relationship with my mother and any other uninhibited opinions.

He also wrote to Gawker:

I would just like to say that these pictures have been taken completely out of context, my mother and i are very close as she is with all her children. she often hugs and kisses me and my siblings in an manner that is intimate, any mother in the world does the same. that day on the beach we walked around with each other completely aware of the presence of photographers there. We have nothing to hide and with that in mind I would like to say that I am openly gay. At my age my mother and I are almost like friends and I feel open to talk to her about anything (and yes our relationship may be different because of my sexuality).
 
I saw that too, Mrs. S, and read the bazillion Gawker comments. What blew me away was the giant variation in the comments as to what people thought was or was not acceptable as far as being affectionate with family members.

Personally, I thought the pictures were sweet, with the exception of the whole boob hold thing, but then that could have been an awkward angle or a slip that some paparazzi caught with his camera set to take multiple pics per second. Much ado about nothing. It's nice to hear him confirm the closeness he feels toward his mom. :)

And my god, Stephanie looks AMAZING.
 
It's interesting to me, the whole issue of physical affection between kids and parents and especially with opposite gender parents. I don't know how much of it is how we are raised and how much physical affection there is with our parents and how much of it is the level of paranoia that can exist today about these issues. What he said about being gay and their relationship being different, I don't know if he meant that in terms of the physical affection.
 
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