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anitram said:
I might be imagining things but I thought INDY posted a little while ago about how he came to Niagara Falls and then paid something like $12 for a hamburger and was amazed at the price.
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I must admit you have a very good memory. Yes, I cracked that between hotel, food and wine taxes I probably paid for the healthcare of at least 3 Canadians for the year. Pretty sure I also mentioned that how friendly and open everyone was. I enjoy the company of Canadians, I just wish a few of them had a better sense of humor.
 
Born and bread in Ireland, lived and worked in Dublin, London, Sydney and Chicago. Now living and working in Toronto. I can confirm Canadians have a great sense of humor. I'm married to one. I'm also the father of 2 kids, soon to be three.

Perhaps the humorless Canadians you've encountered are those who live right next door to the US border?
 
As for the article originally posted, impossible to equate a woman's right (or not) to become a mother with a guy's right (or not) to become a father. I'm sure most sane men will agree. If you don't want to be a dad, cover up, have a well oiled reverse gear and leave no man behind.

Where inequality exists is post birth. When I lived and worked in London, there used to be regular marches outside our office by a group called Fathers 4 Justice - website is We Are Fathers4Justice – The Official Campaign Organisation which fights for equal parenting rather than one that greatly favors women.
 
Party Boy said:
Born and bread in Ireland, lived and worked in Dublin, London, Sydney and Chicago. Now living and working in Toronto. I can confirm Canadians have a great sense of humor. I'm married to one. I'm also the father of 2 kids, soon to be three.

Perhaps the humorless Canadians you've encountered are those who live right next door to the US border?
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If Indy has a sense of humour, he certainly does his best not to show it around here. A bit like his sense of morality. He's just fishing.

Glad to hear you're enjoying Toronto. Lots of young Irish folk making the move here. My friend is getting married to one as a matter of fact
 
Party Boy said:
As for the article originally posted, impossible to equate a woman's right (or not) to become a mother with a guy's right (or not) to become a father. I'm sure most sane men will agree. If you don't want to be a dad, cover up, have a well oiled reverse gear and leave no man behind.
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Leave no man behind made me chuckle!

Party Boy said:
Where inequality exists is post birth. When I lived and worked in London, there used to be regular marches outside our office by a group called Fathers 4 Justice - website is We Are Fathers4Justice – The Official Campaign Organisation which fights for equal parenting rather than one that greatly favors women.
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I've heard a lot about fathers complaining about this. Many times the ex-wife manipulates the court into giving her sole custody, and then brainwashes the kids into thinking their father isn't good enough or doesn't really love them. My mom worked for a divorce lawyer and she heard so many horror stories. Even I heard them when I worked at the office one summer while in high school. And what's funny is that some of those women will be the type who will say what assholes men are, and yet those asshole men are trying to good fathers to their children. Go figure!
 
Jive Turkey said:
If Indy has a sense of humour, he certainly does his best not to show it around here. A bit like his sense of morality. He's just fishing.

Glad to hear you're enjoying Toronto. Lots of young Irish folk making the move here. My friend is getting married to one as a matter of fact
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I moved here close to 8 years ago. I love it here. May not be a great city for a tourist, but to live here (excluding our erstwhile mayor Mr. Ford), there really are very few places to compare.
 
Pearl said:
Leave no man behind made me chuckle!



I've heard a lot about fathers complaining about this. Many times the ex-wife manipulates the court into giving her sole custody, and then brainwashes the kids into thinking their father isn't good enough or doesn't really love them. My mom worked for a divorce lawyer and she heard so many horror stories. Even I heard them when I worked at the office one summer while in high school. And what's funny is that some of those women will be the type who will say what assholes men are, and yet those asshole men are trying to good fathers to their children. Go figure!
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Exactly - There are mothers out there who shouldn't be left in charge of boiling a kettle, never mind a child.

That the law so heavily favors the mother from the outset is wrong. It's based on antiquated thoughts - mother gives birth, stays at home with child while dad goes out and works and is somehow seen as a less loving distant figure. Many Dad's are awesome. That they are then punished and reduced to a weekend here or there, a every other Wednesday (if they are lucky) etc. is just wrong. That said, kids need stability - having them shuffled between two homes every week does not provide that.
 
I've seen the opposite where I am. In the relationships I've seen the court favors the parent who is most aggressive about pressing for custody. Because men (again, where I am) often are more fully employed when the children are young they have more money to get good legal counsel, and because men are raised with greater social permission to press hard for a goal they are are more likely to press full custody even when there is no problem with the mother. Whatever those relationship factors are, the courts around here favor the most proactive litigant.

There are dads who are great and those ones usually get half custody where I am. Most custody arrangements are half time, and it takes someone being really aggressive in court to get anything other than that.
 
jeevey said:
I've seen the opposite where I am. In the relationships I've seen the court favors the parent who is most aggressive about pressing for custody. Because men (again, where I am) often are more fully employed when the children are young they have more money to get good legal counsel, and because men are raised with greater social permission to press hard for a goal they are are more likely to press full custody even when there is no problem with the mother. Whatever those relationship factors are, the courts around here favor the most proactive litigant.

There are dads who are great and those ones usually get half custody where I am. Most custody arrangements are half time, and it takes someone being really aggressive in court to get anything other than that.
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First off, there are many cases where the father fought tooth and nail to see his kids more often, but many courts do favor the mother. I don't know where you live but what happens there is not always the norm for the rest of the world.

Also, I've known quite a few aggressive women in my life. Whether at school, work or just my personal life, I've met plenty of women who weren't afraid to go after what they wanted. I just don't buy into the belief that women in general are whispering mouses and are afraid to assert themselves.

I also don't think that having women socialized as being meek is an excuse for when anything doesn't work out for us. I've also known some women who pull that whole "woe is me, I'm passive because society says I should be". Sorry, but no. That is victimization, not socialization.
 
I believe what the Jeevster is speaking of may be the social construction that also implies that a man with a drive to succeed is simply a man, whereas a woman with an equal drive to succeed is often considered a ballbuster.
 
chork said:
I believe what the Jeevster is speaking of may be the social construction that also implies that a man with a drive to succeed is simply a man, whereas a woman with an equal drive to succeed is often considered a ballbuster.
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She may, but she's made broad, mindboggling generalizations regarding gender issues in the past. It's hard to even consider what she's saying because of that.
 
I just want to know where she lives that is so outside the biased custody norm. I find this quite remarkable.
 
Pearl said:
She may, but she's made broad, mindboggling generalizations regarding gender issues in the past. It's hard to even consider what she's saying because of that.
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If all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail
 
bono_212 said:
I just want to know where she lives that is so outside the biased custody norm. I find this quite remarkable.
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It boggles me too, to tell the truth. I know of several women who did the sole raising of the children before divorce who ended up with every other weekend visitation rights- supervised, in some cases!- after formerly absent dads got very proactive in court. Fifty/fifty is totally the norm- I don't know of any cases where the dad has less than that unless he lives far away or is a convicted child molester (and even that guy has every other weekend with his kid.) I've really wondered about this pattern, and the only sense I can make of it is that the courts are rewarding the person who demonstrates through litigation that they want the child the most, regardless of their motivations.

Anyway, I think chork was right about what I'm trying to say. Broadly speaking, competitiveness and assertiveness are praised in men and boys, but they are not rewarded as much for cooperation and peacekeeping. And the reverse is true for women. This doesn't mean that there are no competitive women or conflict-avoidant men, or that there are no controlling women or exploited men. It means that in court custody situation, I think that men are more likely to be comfortable with pressing for a settlement that they know will create conflict with the other parent. I've seen a lot of women make very generous offers in order to make sure the kid stays close to the dad, to keep the peace or because they don't believe they can win a fight for greater custody.

I'll also say that I think in my area it's more common than the national norm for women to be at home or minimally employed when kids are little. And the ability to pay a real family lawyer makes such a huge difference in how things get settled.
 
Jeevey, where do you live? Are you in the United States? If so, what part?
 
I'm in New England. It's been this way around here for a long time. 50% was the norm when my parents were separated in the early 90s. Back then it was usually one week at one parents house followed by a week at the other. Now it's usually some mad thing like 2 nights at one place and one in the other, or Monday morning through Friday after school at one, if the parents happen to live in different school districts. I actually don't think I've ever known anyone who didn't have 50% as the default arrangement. It takes very serious litigation to get anything else around here.
 
From my experiences in NY, the mother usually gets residential custody and the father gets the kids every other weekend. Depends on how contentious the relationship is.
 
MrPryck2U said:
From my experiences in NY, the mother usually gets residential custody and the father gets the kids every other weekend. Depends on how contentious the relationship is.
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That's what I know too. I think it's more of a legal issue than which gender is more willing to fight for custody.
 
I guess returning to the concept of the thread, in NY when the woman discovers she's pregnant and tells the "father", his only recourse is to beg/convince her to get an abortion. Otherwise, he has no choice in the matter if the woman decides to have the child.

Obviously his choice should be to make sure he doesn't get one passed the goalie in the first place. :wink:
 
jeevey said:
I'm in New England. It's been this way around here for a long time. 50% was the norm when my parents were separated in the early 90s. Back then it was usually one week at one parents house followed by a week at the other. Now it's usually some mad thing like 2 nights at one place and one in the other, or Monday morning through Friday after school at one, if the parents happen to live in different school districts. I actually don't think I've ever known anyone who didn't have 50% as the default arrangement. It takes very serious litigation to get anything else around here.
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I grew up in New England. I think you're painting with way, way, way too broad a brush.
 
I'm just talking about what I've seen, in my local area. It may be totally different elsewhere.
 
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