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Old 08-11-2011, 09:10 AM   #256
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Let's just bring back poorhouses. That's where Britain stuck the underclass for 400 years before the welfare state was introduced, and it worked great (see: Dickens, Trollope).
If people don't have to work why will they?

Surely limiting the time the benefits are available would be better than Dickens or the current situation.

It would also be nice if there was a welfare system that actually rewarded looking and finding a job.

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Old 08-11-2011, 09:38 AM   #257
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Surely it is time to consider serious measures against the black menace.
I'm taking this as a 'deep' type post, just lobbing a grenade in for the fun of it, or... have you been reading Nick Griffin's tweets again?
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:42 AM   #258
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:46 AM   #259
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Also, protip for our conservative buddies INDY500 and purpleoscar: The Daily Mail is widely considered to be too trashy even to use as toilet paper (or support your opinions)

'Boob job' internet rumours rife after Sarah Palin steps out in tight-fitting T-shirt | Mail Online
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:47 AM   #260
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We'll probably see the same thing in Rio de Janeiro, which has a very high crime rate.

Not that I'm comparing London to Rio, I'm just making a comment on this photo.
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:05 AM   #261
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Also, protip for our conservative buddies INDY500 and purpleoscar: The Daily Mail is widely considered to be too trashy even to use as toilet paper (or support your opinions)
I would guess I'm not the only person who read the headline in the link, then saw 'Mail Online', and so then didn't bother clicking on the article, or even reading the quoted parts. So I gather it's a welfare rant, but did they squeeze immigration, Islam and the EU in there too? And would none of this have happened if Princess Diana were still alive? It's not a truly good Daily Mail rant if it doesn't tick all the boxes.
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:09 AM   #262
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poverty

lack of ambition and a culture that discourages ambition within the household

rubbish state system with overcrowded classes, pointless non-academic subjects and a sense of entitlement without the need to work for it

Overcrowded homes and estates

High cost of living for crap local services and poor housing (I think only the highest earners should pay tax)

Pressure from the international community such as the EU

Lack of discipline within the home and schools.

Girls as young as 13 are having children and they don't know how to bring them up. This is the generation of their children who are now rampaging across the streets

A few greedy bankers have gone unpunnished what they've done. They knew exactly what they were doing, don't give me all that "they didn't want to stop their reckless practices because they were fearful of what it would do to jobs within the company" claptrap. Even I know that if you lend ridiculous amounts of money to those who can't really afford the repayment then you are going to come unstuck sometime in the future, and I was rubbish at maths.

Lazy morons who need a good kick up the backside
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:28 AM   #263
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Daily Mail = Daily Fail
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Old 08-11-2011, 11:52 AM   #264
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It’s one of the most disturbing images from a tragedy that has given us so many. A boy, lying in his own blood on a London street, is helped up by a group of men. However, once he’s gotten to his feet, the men pretending to help rob him and walk away, leaving the boy to stumble, dazed and still bleeding, down the road.

The video of Asyraf Haziq, a 20-year-old Malaysian, who had come to the United Kingdom for school. It’s had such an impact that Prime Minister David Cameron even referenced it in one of his addresses, saying that the video makes it “clear that there are things badly wrong with our society.” Haziq has spoken to The Sun about the incident from his hospital bed as he waited to be treated for a broken jaw.

Haziq explained that he was going to a store to buy food to break his Ramadan fast when 20 or so looters tried to steal his bicycle. He doesn’t remember if he fell or was knocked off.


“Then everything is a blur – I fell down. I was bleeding from my mouth and thought some people were coming to help me. But they were from the same group. They took my PSP and a container you can see a man in the video throwing away. The video has been seen by lots of people. I want to thank them for their support. I want everyone to know, these people may steal my things, they won’t break me.”
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Old 08-11-2011, 02:27 PM   #265
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In the full episode he talks about a welfare system where you don't get punished for finding a job that pays too little so you still get some welfare to top off what you get with a job so the incentive for getting any job is better than staying on welfare. Of course I'm open to other ideas like limited time spans for employment insurance and welfare or other ideas that don't make welfare permanent.

To me the most salient point in the video is how the habits of personal choice atrophy and the self-righteousness of the politicians who dole out the welfare.
Okay, but at this point we're talking welfare reform, which is a whole different topic. My comment was in response to this crazily ahistorical idea that the persistent existence of an underclass is some uniquely post-WWII phenomenon brought about by the welfare state. Even after the poorhouse (workhouse) system was reformed early in the 19th century in response to 'new' thinking about the responsibility of the poorest for their own situation and the incentives and disincentives this called for, still around a fifth of its participants became permanent or semipermanent residents--ins-and-outs they called them--no matter what strategies the Victorians tried. The model of human psychology you're advancing as a basis for welfare reform is no more or less head-in-the-clouds/-sand idealistic with regard to this reality than the notion that if only provided adequate education, state-furnished job and family mentoring, and money for basic survival needs, everyone will naturally right themselves and bloom into their full potential eventually.
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Australia turned out okay!
Absolutely! Shipping the worst of the riffraff off to undefended land elsewhere is one tried-and-true alternative, as is creating sheltered markets abroad for the worthless crap your lower orders produce once competition sinks your own markets! Why hobble ourselves trying to rehabilitate lost causes? Even Marx admitted some sectors of the population are terminally unfit for productive work!
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The Daily Mail is widely considered to be too trashy even to use as toilet paper (or support your opinions)
Rush featured Max Hastings' analysis of the riots yesterday.
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I think you need to start with looking at why the British 'underclass' is so uniquely isolated and fucked up to begin with. I don't think either side of the left/right analysis, or left/right blaming, or left/right band-aid 'solutions' are coming close to actually getting to the heart of it.
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Old 08-11-2011, 03:15 PM   #266
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"Go get a job" is all well and good if there are jobs to go get. There's really not.

So if no job, then... ???

Welfare reform is all good, and obviously a worthy and relevant part of the debate. However - totally nonacademic, just my own feeling - there are big differences between the US and the UK. This group or class or 'underclass' or whatever, aren't as bad off as their equivalent in the US. That social welfare safety net is there - it's far, far stronger. The estates etc can be very rough, very ugly, but they're not anywhere near as poor, desolate (or dangerous) as the equivalent in the US. Somehow, that American "one day I'll be that guy" Dream seems to keep that all in check. The belief in that, the aspiration, seems to somehow manage that situation. The good 'underclass' of the US haven't figured out that it's bullshit. You'll never be that guy, you don't stand a fucking chance, the system is absolutely built against you. The 'underclass' in the UK have no such illusions. They know they're fucked. But the safety net is there.

You could say that the division between 'them' and 'us' is pretty much insurmountable in both cases. The one in the US is far wider, they are actually far more disadvantaged. But it's a pretty shallow division, there's not that much belief in it. The division in the UK is far more narrow. Far better support, healthcare, safety and security, and yes, government cash. But the division is super, super, super deep. A question getting asked a lot: How could they trash their own communities? Pretty simple answer: Because they don't see themselves as a part of that community. They know they stand no chance of stepping into it, and they know it doesn't really give a fuck about them.

So in relation to welfare, and pretty all the other analysis and 'solutions' coming from both left and right over the past couple of days, it is really just about how that situation is 'managed', and not about actually changing it. I suppose, just be glad that the equivalent portion of the population in the US are drinking the kool-aid... for now?
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:26 PM   #267
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I'm taking this as a 'deep' type post, just lobbing a grenade in for the fun of it, or... have you been reading Nick Griffin's tweets again?
Very much the former, plus a hint of reaction to a post written in reaction to the latter. The only reason I posted a Nick Griffin tweet was that someone posted it on another forum in the specific context of providing informational update re the Liverpool riot. In no way was I advocating support for this beliefs.
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:36 PM   #268
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Didn't think so - you have on previous occasions proven that you can spell, so you're waaaaaay above the BNP intelligence grade.

I did actually check his Twitter feed a few times myself. I'm actually (happily) surprised the EDL types weren't whipped up earlier. That would have been terrifying.
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:31 PM   #269
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Let's just bring back poorhouses. That's where Britain stuck the underclass for 400 years before the welfare state was introduced, and it worked great (see: Dickens, Trollope).
How do get there from here?
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Sometimes tough love is the truly compassionate social program.
Sometimes yolland, sometimes. Sometimes it would be nice to raise the possibility that a government program, though begun with the best of intentions, may have become inefficient or may actually be doing more harm than good. Sometimes it would be nice to propose reforming an inefficient program or eliminating a harmful program without apoplectic liberals fear-mongering with predictions of homeless seniors wandering the streets begging for food, children being sold into slavery or the return of poorhouses. Sometimes that would be most beneficial.
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:41 PM   #270
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The model of human psychology you're advancing as a basis for welfare reform is no more or less head-in-the-clouds/-sand idealistic with regard to this reality than the notion that if only provided adequate education, state-furnished job and family mentoring, and money for basic survival needs, everyone will naturally right themselves and bloom into their full potential eventually.
Remember that the U.S. successfully got millions off welfare rolls when they limited the time you could get on it. The same conservative argument reflects their attitudes on employment insurance time limits. People do tend to find jobs when they know it won't last forever. Sure not all jobs are fantastic but it at least is a job and some experience. What people don't want to hear is that it's "up to them" when it comes to earning more.

Regarding the economy I'm in favor of stopping this bloated debt and inflation economy that punishes savers and rewards borrowers and threatens large tax increases on those who would hire. That would make it easier for people to find jobs. Good luck with the deranged Keynesian's in government who think the solution to every downturn is more inflation and more debt. It's like a broken record.

For some people (like Amy Winehouse) who have all the opportunities in the world and I don't think anyone knows how to deal with all cases of addicts or ne'er do wells. It's a democracy so we can't hijack them and send them to some dictatorial rehab to forcefully cure them. No tough love or eternal rehab will save them. There's so much we still have to learn about the human brain.
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