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Old 08-10-2011, 04:01 PM   #241
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This squabbling about gun crimes statistics and whose grammar is worse is becoming really distracting and preventing any kind of discussion about the actual riots. Let it go.
My thoughts exactly.
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Old 08-10-2011, 04:31 PM   #242
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I don't know if its possible to have a decent discussion about the causes of these riots without tensions flaring, name calling and an eventual locking of this thread. There are some sensitive issues here, such as race, class and politics to discuss. But as we've seen all too often in FYM, some people can't control themselves or don't have the issues well thought out, so a good talk on figuring this problem out may not happen.

Just my two cents.
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Old 08-10-2011, 05:27 PM   #243
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So, not only is it horrible to see neighbourhoods, and local businesses and homes be destroyed, people robbed and injured, and left homeless, but any valid points against how the police act has been completely drowned out by these fucking moronic rioters.
Some of the commentaries I've seen asserting that "community leaders" need to take the lead in condemning the violence and working with the police leave me pretty incredulous. Not because there aren't plenty of good upstanding adults in the affected areas who are genuinely concerned about the problems facing their young people and sincerely want to help. But when this many young people in a community are this ready to randomly trash and loot an immigrant neighbor's convenience store, gutting the above apartment of a working-class family in the process, and blithely call this "showing the police/the rich we can do whatever we want" (a textbook pathetic teenager's excuse if there ever was one) then you can't actually be said to have functional community leadership, can you? It's true, riots pretty much always involve self-destructive excesses, since showing the authorities your contempt for their mandate is part of the m.o. and smashing nearby shit up is one quick route to achieving that, but when this much of the destruction appears wholly opportunistic and random in nature, that does somehow seem worse than having an identifiable, rational grievance which might reasonably be addressed through policing reform for example. If you don't feel fundamentally respected by nor have fundamental respect for your own neighbors, then you're pretty poorly placed to aim for the same vis-a-vis 'society at large.'
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Old 08-10-2011, 05:44 PM   #244
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Well said.

My friend from the very peaceful Faroe Islands posted this on his Facebook page earlier today: "Lack of empathy is the root of all violence. To understand violent actions, we may need to have empathy with those that ("appear to") lack empathy."

It's a hard task to accomplish sometimes -- especially in the face of such destruction. But the true roots of the riots (beyond the initial event itself), need to be explored by those in charge. If not, those 'cunts' your friend described will literally ruin everything -- including the ideological points -- for both sides.

...Another great one, from a London bookstore employee: "We'll stay open, if they steal some books they might learn something."
Yeah, that's a great way of putting it - no matter how angry we might be, no matter how pointless or awful the riots were, it's important to understand the roots of this rather than just merely condemn it. Otherwise, well... it's not going to fix itself!

Great line by the way! I saw a group on facebook called "I didn't take part in the London riots because i don't have the I.Q. of a ham sandwich"
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Old 08-10-2011, 08:49 PM   #245
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Surely it is time to consider serious measures against the black menace.
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:11 PM   #246
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Tbh, if I was a young black unemployed teenager in London or, fuck it, pretty much anywhere in the UK, or actually, pretty much anywhere in Europe, I'd probably riot too. I'd probably take my chance.

The weasel words of white middle class condemnation in the media, as usual, explain nothing, and understand nothing.
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Old 08-10-2011, 09:46 PM   #247
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UK riots 2011: Liberal dogma has spawned a generation of brutalised youths | Mail Online

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I recently received a letter from a teacher who worked in a county’s pupil referral unit, describing appalling difficulties in enforcing discipline. Her only weapon, she said, was the right to mark a disciplinary cross against a child’s name for misbehaviour.
Having repeatedly and vainly asked a 15-year-old to stop using obscene language, she said: ‘Fred, if you use language like that again, I’ll give you a cross.’
He replied: ‘Give me an effing cross, then!’ Eventually, she said: ‘Fred, you have three crosses now. You must miss your next break.’
He answered: ‘I’m not missing my break, I’m going for an effing fag!’ When she appealed to her manager, he said: ‘Well, the boy’s got a lot going on at home at the moment. Don’t be too hard on him.’
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They have no sense of responsibility for themselves, far less towards others, and look to no future beyond the next meal, sexual encounter or TV football game.
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They are products of a culture which gives them so much unconditionally that they are let off learning how to become human beings. My dogs are better behaved and subscribe to a higher code of values than the young rioters of Tottenham, Hackney, Clapham and Birmingham.
Hmmmm...where have I seen this before?

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Old 08-10-2011, 10:42 PM   #248
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And what of the schools? I do not think they can be blamed for the creation of a grotesquely self-indulgent, non-judgmental culture.

This has ultimately been sanctioned by Parliament, which refuses to accept, for instance, that children are more likely to prosper with two parents than with one, and that the dependency culture is a tragedy for those who receive something for nothing. This is why conservatives argue against welfare dependency, it's not just the staggering amount of money but the wasted lives as well.
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They are an absolute deadweight upon society, because they contribute nothing yet cost the taxpayer billions. Liberal opinion holds they are victims, because society has failed to provide them with opportunities to develop their potential.

Most of us would say this is nonsense. Rather, they are victims of a perverted social ethos, which elevates personal freedom to an absolute, and denies the underclass the discipline — tough love — which alone might enable some of its members to escape from the swamp of dependency in which they live.
This is exactly why conservatives decry the entitlement state and the opiate of government dependency. It's not just the enormous waste of money but the tragic waste of lives as well.

Sometimes tough love is the truly compassionate social program.
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Old 08-11-2011, 12:29 AM   #249
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Let's just bring back poorhouses. That's where Britain stuck the underclass for 400 years before the welfare state was introduced, and it worked great (see: Dickens, Trollope).
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Old 08-11-2011, 01:32 AM   #250
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Sometimes tough love is the truly compassionate social program.

you should tell that to Grandma when her medicare and social security are taken away.
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Old 08-11-2011, 02:44 AM   #251
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Tbh, if I was a young black unemployed teenager in London or, fuck it, pretty much anywhere in the UK, or actually, pretty much anywhere in Europe, I'd probably riot too. I'd probably take my chance.

The weasel words of white middle class condemnation in the media, as usual, explain nothing, and understand nothing.
I would have to agree with this.
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:44 AM   #252
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I think you need to start with looking at why the British 'underclass' is so uniquely isolated and fucked up to begin with. I don't think either side of the left/right analysis, or left/right blaming, or left/right band-aid 'solutions' are coming close to actually getting to the heart of it.
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Old 08-11-2011, 04:46 AM   #253
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Let's just bring back poorhouses. That's where Britain stuck the underclass for 400 years before the welfare state was introduced, and it worked great (see: Dickens, Trollope).
Australia turned out okay!
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Old 08-11-2011, 05:50 AM   #254
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Australia turned out okay!
Fkn oath m8!
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Old 08-11-2011, 07:09 AM   #255
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This is exactly why conservatives decry the entitlement state and the opiate of government dependency.
Yet they're defending their actions by complaining about taxes... sound familiar?
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