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Old 04-20-2010, 01:22 PM   #1
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lOGOS

LOGOS

To many of the classical Greeks and Romans - it is governing principle or universal reason and the human soul was a part of it.

Christians believe Jesus is logos made flesh (Gospel of John Prologue).

What are your thoughts? Is it possible there is a governing principle, a divine set of rules for the entire universe? Is it possible the human soul shares the same “substance” or “predisposition” with this principle? Do you accept the premise that living according to logos (reason and virtue) is to live in harmony with the divine order of the universe? As a Christian (if you are one), do you think the classical Greek and Roman philosophers were on track with this idea?
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:01 PM   #2
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:01 PM   #3
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Old 04-20-2010, 02:16 PM   #4
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Well, there is physics or the natural law which governs matter / time / space, etc etc.

Is Logos more about morality? I think life will always try to survive. It will adapt to what works. Each species will be different. Humans have "morals" and "reason" because they help us survive and flourish - and/or help us deal with how we survive and flourish.

I think everyone already thinks they are living according to reason and virtue. I dont think anyone would disagree with that. As for the whole living in harmony thing, I think you need to get Zen for that, not Logos.
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Old 04-20-2010, 06:48 PM   #5
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Is it possible there is a governing principle, a divine set of rules for the entire universe?
Laws of physics, laws of gravity, entropy, etc...sure.

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Is it possible the human soul shares the same “substance” or “predisposition” with this principle?
Isn't this somewhat self-evident? Humanity responds to these laws -- though, interestingly, humans seem uniquely gifted to bend them to their will -- within reason, that is. What is the point of technology but to take authority over (and thus to subvert, invert, or thwart) established laws of science?

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Do you accept the premise that living according to logos (reason and virtue) is to live in harmony with the divine order of the universe?
Not sure how you define harmony, since sometimes harmony is found is discord. The question is, when do we live within order and when are we outside of it.

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As a Christian (if you are one), do you think the classical Greek and Roman philosophers were on track with this idea?
Since I believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of all that became before Him - sure.
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Old 04-20-2010, 06:56 PM   #6
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Laws of physics, laws of gravity, entropy, etc...sure.
I wonder what the studies of quantum mechanics will produce over the next twenty or thirty years.

Personally, I think the fields of philosophy and physics will mend their centuries old split and overlap in quite a few areas.
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Old 04-20-2010, 07:01 PM   #7
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Since I believe that Jesus was the fulfillment of all that became before Him - sure.
I’ve said this before, but I’ve always found it bit frustrating that most New Testament versions translate the original Greek “logos” into “Word” – this does not do the concept justice – especially when you consider the Hellenistic audience would have understood what John was saying when he claimed that Jesus was the Logos come to earth.
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Old 04-20-2010, 07:40 PM   #8
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I’ve said this before, but I’ve always found it bit frustrating that most New Testament versions translate the original Greek “logos” into “Word” – this does not do the concept justice – especially when you consider the Hellenistic audience would have understood what John was saying when he claimed that Jesus was the Logos come to earth.
Particularly when you connect the speaking of God in the beginning of Genesis. The Word came, and brought life. What was that word? Maybe Bono's got it right -- "the sound."
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:38 PM   #9
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What is the point of technology but to take authority over (and thus to subvert, invert, or thwart) established laws of science?
That is magic, like one would find in biblical miracles. Technology exploits scientific knowledge for practical benefit.
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Old 04-21-2010, 05:50 PM   #10
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A-Wanderer - what are your thoughts regarding the estimated 11 (at a minimum) dimensions? In your opinion, are topics such as M Theory or the Theory of Everything more in the camp of philosophy or physics?
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Old 04-22-2010, 06:04 AM   #11
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I think that I ought to suspend judgement until there is evidence persuasive enough to convince most physicists. I think that you haven't properly defined physics and philosophy in the question.
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Old 04-24-2010, 02:07 AM   #12
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I think that you haven't properly defined physics and philosophy in the question.
Some have said theoretical physics is more philosophy than physics since it can't be observed by today's instruments.
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Old 04-24-2010, 04:25 AM   #13
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How the balls did I miss this thread?
M-Theory intrigues the hell out of me.

Did you see this new experiment, AEON?

It's not specifically M-Theory but it's interesting. Take it FWIW.

FOXNews.com - Freaky Physics Proves Parallel Universes Exist
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:35 AM   #14
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There was a response to that article on scienceblogs

The Worst Physics Article Ever : Built on Facts
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:42 AM   #15
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Some have said theoretical physics is more philosophy than physics since it can't be observed by today's instruments.
I remember seeing that criticism in the Brian Green documentary 'The Elegant Universe'.

Theoretical physics builds explanatory models which can fit the universe that we live in, and hopefully provide explanations for the unusual which match observations.

The relationship between the universe and the mathematical model is an interesting one. I think that is where philosophy comes in. The sorts of truth claims that count as scientific knowledge and why we should believe them is a really cool topic.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:54 AM   #16
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How the balls did I miss this thread?
M-Theory intrigues the hell out of me.

Did you see this new experiment, AEON?

It's not specifically M-Theory but it's interesting. Take it FWIW.

FOXNews.com - Freaky Physics Proves Parallel Universes Exist

I missed this story – as I usually don’t read foxnew.com. I did find it interesting now that you’ve linked to it, I also enjoyed reading the response from the sienceblogs. The good thing is that stories like that at least build up public interest.

I try to follow what’s going on with the Hadron Supercollider in France. The thought of small black holes being created and evaporating is both scary and fascinating (as controlled black holes were a weapon in the latest Star Trek movie). Also, it would be simply breathtaking if they were able to observe an actual graviton “disappearing” into another dimension.

The next 20 to 30 years has the potential to open the floodgates in our understanding of the basic building blocks of our universe (of course, we thought that we had that with the atom). Which, in a way, M-theory would also prove the classical Greeks were onto something with their concept of logos.
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Old 04-24-2010, 09:57 AM   #17
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The relationship between the universe and the mathematical model is an interesting one. I think that is where philosophy comes in. The sorts of truth claims that count as scientific knowledge and why we should believe them is a really cool topic.
I agree with all that you've said here.
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Old 04-24-2010, 06:16 PM   #18
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How the balls did I miss this thread?
M-Theory intrigues the hell out of me.
Ha, me too! Of course, I was on the beach in Mexico for the past week.

I am fascinated by the idea of time and space being cyclical across many dimensions and forming patterns.

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The relationship between the universe and the mathematical model is an interesting one. I think that is where philosophy comes in. The sorts of truth claims that count as scientific knowledge and why we should believe them is a really cool topic.


The Golden Rule, the Golden Ratio, God's Fingerprint.





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Old 04-24-2010, 07:36 PM   #19
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Re-Evolution
by Terence McKenna
If the truth can be told so as to be understood, it will be believed.
Human history represents such a radical break with the natural systems of biological organization that preceded it, that it must be the response to a kind of attractor, or dwell point that lies ahead in the temporal dimension. Persistently Western religions have integrated into their theologies the notion of a kind of end of the world, and I think that a lot of psychedelic experimentation sort of confirms this intuition, I mean, it isn't going to happen according to any of the scenarios of orthodox religion, but the basic intuition, that the universe seeks closure in a kind of omega point of transcendance, is confirmed, it's almost as though this object in hyperspace, glittering in hyperspace, throws off reflections of itself, which actually ricochet into the past, illuminating this mystic, inspiring that saint or visionary, and that out of these fragmentary glimpses of eternity we can build a kind of map, of not only the past of the universe, and the evolutionary egression into novelty, but a kind of map of the future, this is what shamanism is always been about, a shaman is someone who has been to the end, it's someone who knows how the world really works, and knowing how the world really works means to have risen outside, above, beyond the dimensions of ordinary space, time, and casuistry, and actually seen the wiring under the board, stepped outside the confines of learned culture and learned and embedded language, into the domain of what Wittgenstein called "the unspeakable," the transcendental presense of the other, which can be absanctioned, in various ways, to yield systems of knowledge which can be brought back into ordinary social space for the good of the community, so in the context of ninety percent of human culture, the shaman has been the agent of evolution, because the shaman learns the techniques to go between ordinary reality and the domain of the ideas, this higher dimensional continuum that is somehow parallel to us, available to us, and yet ordinarily occluded by cultural convention out of fear of the mystery I believe, and what shamans are, I believe, are people who have been able to de-condition themselves from the community's instinctual distrust of the mystery, and to go into it, to go into this bewildering higher dimension, and gain knowledge, recover the jewel lost at the beginning of time, to save souls, cure, commune with the ancestors and so forth and so on. Shamanism is not a religion, it's a set of techniques, and the principal technique is the use of psychedelic plants. What psychedelics do is they dissolve boundaries, and in the presence of dissolved boundaries, one cannot continue to close one's eyes to the ruination of the earth, the poisoning of the seas, and the consequences of two thousand years of unchallenged dominator culture, based on monotheism, hatred of nature, suppression of the female, and so forth and so on. So, what shamans have to do is act as exemplars, by making this cosmic journey to the domain of the Gaian ideas, and then bringing them back in the form of art to the struggle to save the world. The planet has a kind of intelligence, that it can actually open a channel of communication with an individual human being. The message that nature sends is, transform your language through a synergy between electronic culture and the psychedelic imagination, a synergy between dance and idea, a synergy between understanding and intuition, and dissolve the boundaries that your culture has sanctioned between you, to become part of this Gaian supermind, I mean I think it's fairly profound, it's fairly apocalyptic. History is ending. I mean, we are to be the generation that witnesses the revelation of the purpose of the cosmos. History is the shock wave of the eschaton. History is the shock wave of eschatology, and what this means for those of us who will live through this transition into hyperspace, is that we will be privileged to see the greatest release of compressed change probably since the birth of the universe. The twentieth century is the shudder that announces the approaching cataracts of time over which our species and the destiny of this planet is about to be swept.

If the truth can be told so as to be understood, it will be believed.

The emphasis in house music and rave culture on physiologically compatible rhythms and this sort of thing is really the rediscovery of the art of natural magic with sound, that sound, properly understood, especially percussive sound, can actually change neurological states, and large groups of people getting together in the presence of this kind of music are creating a telepathic community of bonding that hopefully will be strong enough that it can carry the vision out into the mainstream of society. I think that the youth culture that is emerging in the nineties is an end of the millenium culture that is actually summing up Western civilization and pointing us in an entirely different direction, that we're going to arrive in the third millenium, in the middle of an archaic revival, which will mean a revival of these physiologically empowering rhythm signatures, a new art, a new social vision, a new relationship to nature, to feminism, to ego. All of these things are taking hold, and not a moment too soon.
Re-Evolution
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Old 04-24-2010, 07:38 PM   #20
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The next 20 to 30 years has the potential to open the floodgates in our understanding of the basic building blocks of our universe (of course, we thought that we had that with the atom).
Caution is advisable here. Physicists were saying the same thing in the early twentieth century.
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