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Old 03-09-2009, 10:58 PM   #31
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This is ridiculous. Show me just one item on the list of Saul Alinsky's tactics that Rush doesn't use... just one.
Just one.
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RULE 1: "Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have." Power is derived from 2 main sources - money and people. "Have-Nots" must build power from flesh and blood. (These are two things of which there is a plentiful supply. Government and corporations always have a difficult time appealing to people, and usually do so almost exclusively with economic arguments.)
Have nots build power by taking from the haves via coercive government. The haves are motivated and earn a living and invest a part of their earnings. If more people understood this they wouldn't be wasting their energy on protesting poverty and hoping the tax-payer will pay their mortgages that many should not have gotten into in the first place.

Quote:
RULE 2: "Never go outside the expertise of your people." It results in confusion, fear and retreat. Feeling secure adds to the backbone of anyone. (Organizations under attack wonder why radicals don't address the "real" issues. This is why. They avoid things with which they have no knowledge.)
Rush talks about lots of things (economics/philosophy/politics/sports/pop culture.) Now I happen to agree with Alinsky that going out of your expertise is a problem for many people including Rush and I don't see too much immoral with this, though efforts should be made to learn as much as possible instead of just avoiding subjects.

Quote:
RULE 3: "Whenever possible, go outside the expertise of the enemy." Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty. (This happens all the time. Watch how many organizations under attack are blind-sided by seemingly irrelevant arguments that they are then forced to address.)
Going outside the expertise of the enemy is to find the truth not just to create insecurity and anxiety. This just sounds like artifice without substance. If you hit on some truth it will naturally knock some people off balance but that shouldn't be the main point. Some arguments are irrelevant whether they knock people off balance or not.

Quote:
RULE 4: "Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules." If the rule is that every letter gets a reply, send 30,000 letters. You can kill them with this because no one can possibly obey all of their own rules. (This is a serious rule. The besieged entity's very credibility and reputation is at stake, because if activists catch it lying or not living up to its commitments, they can continue to chip away at the damage.)
Looking for hypocrisy is fine I have no problem with that. Though the left usually doesn't put much standards on themselves so when Conservatives point it out it doesn't have the same impact like when a Conservative doesn't live up to his/her standards.

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RULE 5: "Ridicule is man's most potent weapon." There is no defense. It's irrational. It's infuriating. It also works as a key pressure point to force the enemy into concessions. (Pretty crude, rude and mean, huh? They want to create anger and fear.)
Liberals are funny. What can I say? Sure Limbaugh uses that but conservatives find liberals funny without him. Just look at bizarre political correctness, though I find that sometimes it's more scary than funny. I'll concede this one for you if you want.

YouTube - the HUGO CHAVEZ singing classic video !

YouTube - Cindy Sheehan Defends Hugo Chavez

This ridicules itself because she is sincere. It looks delusional. Conservatives think "Do people really believe this? LOL!"

Quote:
RULE 6: "A good tactic is one your people enjoy." They'll keep doing it without urging and come back to do more. They're doing their thing, and will even suggest better ones. (Radical activists, in this sense, are no different that any other human being. We all avoid "un-fun" activities, and but we revel at and enjoy the ones that work and bring results.)
Rush enjoys freedom of individuals to pursue their best. The left is about envy and forcing equal outcomes. One is positive and one is sadistic.

Quote:
RULE 7: "A tactic that drags on too long becomes a drag." Don't become old news. (Even radical activists get bored. So to keep them excited and involved, organizers are constantly coming up with new tactics.)
There's rarely a situtation where there's such boredom that government is not increasing in size and there's not something to complain about. Even when Republicans push for big government there's something to complain about. Rush did well in the last 8 years despite Republican electoral victories.

Quote:
RULE 8: "Keep the pressure on. Never let up." Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. (Attack, attack, attack from all sides, never giving the reeling organization a chance to rest, regroup, recover and re-strategize.)
See above. Rush doesn't have to fake dislike for left-wing policies. If anything the share of the GDP in the hands of the government increases two steps forward and one step back and then another two steps forward in the past century. There is no forced energy that has to be aroused. The cause should generate enough energy on its own.

Quote:
RULE 9: "The threat is usually more terrifying than the thing itself." Imagination and ego can dream up many more consequences than any activist. (Perception is reality. Large organizations always prepare a worst-case scenario, something that may be furthest from the activists' minds. The upshot is that the organization will expend enormous time and energy, creating in its own collective mind the direst of conclusions. The possibilities can easily poison the mind and result in demoralization.)
(The left is terrifiying. I've met socialists and communists in university and they are conformist and ego-maniacs that want massive government intervention. They are actually more terrifying then they show themselves as. Though the above quote of "wasting energy and poisoning the mind" has more to do with sadism than making laws that work.)

Quote:
RULE 10: "If you push a negative hard enough, it will push through and become a positive." Violence from the other side can win the public to your side because the public sympathizes with the underdog. (Unions used this tactic. Peaceful [albeit loud] demonstrations during the heyday of unions in the early to mid-20th Century incurred management's wrath, often in the form of violence that eventually brought public sympathy to their side.)
(The public should only sympathize with the underdog if the details warrant it and not simply because they are an underdog.)

Quote:
RULE 11: "The price of a successful attack is a constructive alternative." Never let the enemy score points because you're caught without a solution to the problem. (Old saw: If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. Activist organizations have an agenda, and their strategy is to hold a place at the table, to be given a forum to wield their power. So, they have to have a compromise solution.)
(The left and right have different solutions. Also calling something a "constructive alternative" reeks of phony alternatives put together on the fly just to have something ready.)

Quote:
RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)
The left does this to avoid debate. Conservatives talk about individuals to help illustrate ideas about human nature and they want laws to be based on that.

Nice try though with the moral equivalency though.
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Old 03-09-2009, 11:06 PM   #32
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Rush reminds me of a carnival pig, kind of the walking embodiment of self-indulgence with his enormous waistline, his extravagant lifestyle, his drug addictions, his obvious sexual compulsions (no one gets caught coming back from the DR with unprescribed Viagra without having engaged in some sort of sexual tourism), and his complete and utter disregard to claim any responsibility for the excesses. at least Rush has the money to pay for the consequences -- the abortions, the Valtrex, the hearing aid, the rehab, the expensive cardiologists, the baboon heart.

Rush can do whatever he likes, and he knows this.
Sounds like a particularly decadent character from a Brett Easton Ellis novel.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:09 AM   #33
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I have to say oscar you really missed the point with this one... You bring up these rules because Rush and Hannity tried to equate a certain devious calculated approach with Obama that was related to the word "radical", but like often their own audience didn't realize they were using the same tactics themselves when doing so... I'm not going to go through everyone for this post is bloated, repetitive and obtuse when asked for just one example of what Rush DOESN'T do...

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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Have nots build power by taking from the haves via coercive government. The haves are motivated and earn a living and invest a part of their earnings. If more people understood this they wouldn't be wasting their energy on protesting poverty and hoping the tax-payer will pay their mortgages that many should not have gotten into in the first place.
^ This is just laughable. People have shown you time and time again that you really are not capable of seeing the big picture, we've shown you time and time again that there are many out there do not fall in the category of "should not have gotten into in the first place". But this is where Rush comes in, he constantly paints the picture of those that "achieve" and those that are "bums", and it looks like you fell for it...


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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Rush talks about lots of things (economics/philosophy/politics/sports/pop culture.) Now I happen to agree with Alinsky that going out of your expertise is a problem for many people including Rush and I don't see too much immoral with this, though efforts should be made to learn as much as possible instead of just avoiding subjects.
This is a perfect example of Rush's hypocricy. Rush even slips up and admits this himself. Rush doesn't really fall into the category of the religious right, yet he caters to them and tries to talk their language because he knows they are part of his core audience.


And the list goes on and on... The rest you defended or didn't understand you never did show me one that Rush doesn't use.

But you took a lot of time attacking and never let go(rule 8) so you are well on your way...

I find it scary that you(and I mean his audience in general) don't see the hypocricy, I couldn't have typed up that response with a straight face.
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Old 03-10-2009, 08:57 AM   #34
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Have nots build power by taking from the haves via coercive government. The haves are motivated and earn a living and invest a part of their earnings. If more people understood this t
Wow. This tells me everything I need to know about you.

And BTW I'm one of those have nots who apparently wasn't motivated to study and earn a living. I didn't get more degrees than you at better schools. I just took from you via the coercive Canadian government.

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Old 03-10-2009, 09:57 AM   #35
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Originally Posted by purpleoscar View Post
Have nots build power by taking from the haves via coercive government. The haves are motivated and earn a living and invest a part of their earnings. If more people understood this they wouldn't be wasting their energy on protesting poverty and hoping the tax-payer will pay their mortgages that many should not have gotten into in the first place.
Ghandi and others have said a nation’s greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members.

By what measure do people like Rush calculate greatness?


8 Myths About Poverty

1. Poverty is the failure of the individual
Massive increases in unemployment in Canada in recent years have not resulted from personal inadequacy. Many workers have lost their jobs for reasons beyond their control (economic crisis, illness or disability) and cannot find work because it is not available.

2. The poor do not want to work
The fact is that most poor people do work full or part-time—over 60% of those heading poor families and over 70% of poor unattached individuals. Of people dependent on welfare, about 37% are children, 16% are single mothers and 24% are disabled.

3. Poor people do not pay taxes
Having to pay income tax starts far below the poverty line. A single mother with two children in 1991 started paying federal tax when her income reached $11,601; a single person without dependants was taxed at an income level of $6,532. And the poor still pay sales tax, GST and property taxes.

4. Welfare rates are too generous
All welfare rates are well below the poverty line. The highest rates are still 20% below; the lowest are 76% below the poverty line.

5. Poor people need to be taught basic life skills like budgeting
Many live far below the poverty line and must spend all or most of their income on basic needs. Anyone who manages to feed and clothe a family on a very limited income already has budgeting skills.

6. The welfare system is rife with cheating and fraud
A study conducted by a national auditing firm estimated fraud to be in the range of 3% of the welfare budget. On the other hand, there are estimates that income tax fraud is in the order of 20%.

7. Poor families are poor because they have too many children
Most poor families have less than two children. Only 15% have 3 or more children under 18. Recent studies show children in poor families are more likely to suffer chronic health problems and twice as likely to drop out of school.

8. We cannot afford the social programs needed to eliminate poverty
According to per capita Gross Domestic Product (GDP), Canada is more prosperous than all European countries. However, Canada spends less on social security and other income support measures (including EI and welfare) as a share of GDP than most European countries.
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:58 AM   #36
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"Do you think Obama has any intention of paying for all this spending? Folks, if he had any intention of paying for it, he wouldn't do 90% of it because we don't have the money."

financeguy, was this the intended focus of the thread from that initial speech?

The US was headed for default before Obama was elected.

The treasury bubble propping up the US dollar will pop when the markets hit bottom whenever that might be.

There isn't enough real cash flow to service the debt (which is default) so the debt will have to be devalued in some way. Could be in the form of virtual foreign debt forgiveness, devaluation of the dollar, raising of taxes, and higher interest rates on debt.

Consolidation and/or war would be options for a political fix to default.
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Old 03-10-2009, 02:31 PM   #37
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Wow. This tells me everything I need to know about you.

And BTW I'm one of those have nots who apparently wasn't motivated to study and earn a living. I didn't get more degrees than you at better schools. I just took from you via the coercive Canadian government.

So do you want more government intervention? Socialists aren't happy with 40% of the GDP in the hands of the three levels of government. Why ask for more? Special interest groups keep pushing for more money without cognizance of the ability to pay. So at some point people are going to have to realize that it's okay to say no. Because we have lots of government doesn't mean we should just go off a cliff without any mindfulness of the value of that spending (AKA stimlus packages). Everyone likes subsidies but when it comes to paying for it that's another matter. There's also another thing. Some people also like to work and save money for education as well. There are other choices that can be made beyond demanding an entitlement.

BTW Rush doesn't want to eliminate state schools. Your argument is based on straw men and only extreme libertarians would put this point of view so you are arguing with virtually nobody. Socialists don't want to stop there. They openly believe in forcing equal outcomes. As long as there are unequal outcomes there's this nagging envy that drives them to complain and demand.

To get success in life there has to be concentration/goals/financial budget and self-discipline. Even if you have a crappy job with little education it's possible to do extreme savings to improve your future. This is where pride and ego have to go out the door. Those who don't throw pride and ego out the door are the ones who will complain even if they live in Sweden.
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Old 03-10-2009, 03:18 PM   #38
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8 Myths About Poverty

1. Poverty is the failure of the individual
Massive increases in unemployment in Canada in recent years have not resulted from personal inadequacy. Many workers have lost their jobs for reasons beyond their control (economic crisis, illness or disability) and cannot find work because it is not available.
Rush isn't laughing at job losses. He's annoyed that the government (whether Republicans or Democrats) manipulate the money supply and put traps that are doomed to defeat (ACORN/Subprime loans) that amplify recessions.

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2. The poor do not want to work
The fact is that most poor people do work full or part-time—over 60% of those heading poor families and over 70% of poor unattached individuals. Of people dependent on welfare, about 37% are children, 16% are single mothers and 24% are disabled.
Well my Dad just came back from visiting my Grandmother in Brazil and what is considered poverty in N. America is not in other countries. He can also see first hand the bureaucracy/high taxes/legal fees and barriers/lack of private property rights that hinder a person's potential. Plus these tests (out of deference and tact) avoid the needed questions about addictions and poor choices that people make to add to it. I don't know of any economists that want to starve people. The cost of paying for things for people to give them dignity and ego support would be so much that the desire to work would decrease. Work is painful and people seek to avoid pain. Lots of people go into avoidance instead of dealing with their problems. I also believe that family is an important part of success though there are many people (that don't have much family support) who get a drive to overcome those obstacles to improve their lives regardless.

If people are really mindful of death and how it could come at anytime they should be able to find some urgency in their situtation to change their habits. My psychology teacher showed some statistics showing that those who could least afford substance abuse are the people who partake of it the most. I doubt any media people would ask a homeless person this question yet it's an important question. When I learned to meditate I had to face my own habits (laziness, fear, anxiety) in order to improve my concentration. I complain less and look to myself more on how I can make better choices and stay equanamous about things I can't change. I'm still learning to avoid rumination and self-doubt all the time. There are lots of things we do to ourselves in self-sabotage. Only people on the right in politics seem to have a glimmer of understanding about that. Most of what I hear from the left is grievance after grievance and after all the social experiments of the 60's and the war on poverty it still didn't eradicate poverty. A social program is only as good as those who take advantage of it and use it to better themselves. So sure a safety net is necessary but at some point I have to learn to get on the high rope wire and practice so I can teach others to do the same.

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Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
3. Poor people do not pay taxes
Having to pay income tax starts far below the poverty line. A single mother with two children in 1991 started paying federal tax when her income reached $11,601; a single person without dependants was taxed at an income level of $6,532. And the poor still pay sales tax, GST and property taxes.
Yeah I like the idea of poor people not paying taxes but poor to me is someone that can't pay for basic food clothing and shelter (not including $500,000 houses to flip). Everything else is ego entitlements based envy of unequal outcomes.

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4. Welfare rates are too generous
All welfare rates are well below the poverty line. The highest rates are still 20% below; the lowest are 76% below the poverty line.
There's lots of poverty statistics that have different criteria for poverty = inequality vs. poverty as what Bono calls "extreme poverty". I would rather be poor in the U.S. than poor in Zimbabwe.

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5. Poor people need to be taught basic life skills like budgeting
Many live far below the poverty line and must spend all or most of their income on basic needs. Anyone who manages to feed and clothe a family on a very limited income already has budgeting skills.
Yeah all the homeless people have budgeting skills. This is too reductive for me to take seriously. Especially when there is lots of addictive behaviour which rules out budgeting and prioritizing skills.

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Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
6. The welfare system is rife with cheating and fraud
A study conducted by a national auditing firm estimated fraud to be in the range of 3% of the welfare budget. On the other hand, there are estimates that income tax fraud is in the order of 20%.
I don't trust this study. What consitutes fraud ignores addiction. When you budget you make a value judgment based on priorities. Addictive people are not doing that.

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Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
7. Poor families are poor because they have too many children
Most poor families have less than two children. Only 15% have 3 or more children under 18. Recent studies show children in poor families are more likely to suffer chronic health problems and twice as likely to drop out of school.
Right but how much of this has to do with neglect and abuse in the household? Giving those parents larger welfare checks won't necessary improve habits and choices.

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Originally Posted by AliEnvy View Post
8. We cannot afford the social programs needed to eliminate poverty
According to per capita Gross Domestic Product (GDP), Canada is more prosperous than all European countries. However, Canada spends less on social security and other income support measures (including EI and welfare) as a share of GDP than most European countries.
I've got some news. Nobody has eliminated poverty. Maybe in statistics that avoid median income but not in reality. At best we can create a safety net to give second chances because some people can rise out of that situtation but being sorry for oneself doesn't work as well as putting your nose to the grindstone, being resiliant and to perservere. Self-help books are a dime a dozen but without effort to change your ways it won't happen.

It would be nice if schools would have courses based on life skills like budgeting and priorities but I never had that. Though my knowledge of meditation let me in on a big secret. Even if you know what the right habits are that's not enough to change your habits. You have to repeat the right behaviours over and over again before the new habits take over. This requires effort, vigilance, and faith in oneself. The only places I learned this from are parents and especially philosophy (often learned in one of the main religions for most people).

If all the people under the calculated poverty line (without medical problems) put the effort into self-diligence the poverty statistics would be lower or poverty would be an inequality statistic as opposed to a statistic that measures the lack of food/clothing/housing. Looking at redistributive plans without knowledge of choices people make is disappointing, especially to those that have false hope for government leaders to solve their problems.
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Old 03-10-2009, 03:25 PM   #39
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BTW Rush doesn't want to eliminate state schools. Your argument is based on straw men and only extreme libertarians would put this point of view so you are arguing with virtually nobody. Socialists don't want to stop there. They openly believe in forcing equal outcomes. As long as there are unequal outcomes there's this nagging envy that drives them to complain and demand.
What in the hell are you talking about? What "argument"? I haven't argued anything here at all.

Frankly your incredibly callous statement told us all more about you than you may want people to know. You continually offend people with your comments about the poor and the have-nots and your broadbased stereotypical commentary.

This former "have not" fits none of your pre-conceived notions, but why don't you keep holding on to them in defiance of evidence to the contrary. What do I care, the view from the top is pretty good now that I've "taken" from you.
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Old 03-10-2009, 03:43 PM   #40
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we need more tax cuts !! ditto heads - unite
a rising tide lifts all ships



people need to learn how to pull themselves up by their own boob straps !!!!!
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:38 PM   #41
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This former "have not" fits none of your pre-conceived notions, but why don't you keep holding on to them in defiance of evidence to the contrary. What do I care, the view from the top is pretty good now that I've "taken" from you.
Are you still arguing that the right wants to eliminate government and all social programs? Nobody is arguing that safety nets have to be done away with. People also can rely on families for their education and upbringing. Not everyone starts at the bottom. Yet social programs have to be paid for so a balance has to be struck. Therefore the left has to be told no quite often to do that. That also includes Conservatives that overspend as well. Even the Obama administration admits this. If you look at far left parties like the NDP they have a list of all the programs they want and then a budget that supposedly balances. Yet anybody with economic knowledge knows that when taxes go beyond the 30 to 40% consumption of the GDP the total intake of tax revenue to the government decellerates and when they are really high (like in Zimbabwe) it creates a disincentive to work that is impossible not to notice. Programs then start to get rationed.

Trying to make people feel guilty and call them callous is just a ploy to avoid constructive criticism. It's possible to point out faults without damning people to hell. My attitude is to study how certain countries and individuals find success and to be aware of those patterns.

Bureaucrats seem not to be offended when taxpayer dollars are wasted. Some people call that callous.
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Old 03-11-2009, 08:49 PM   #42
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we need more tax cuts !!
Tax cuts are great when the budget is in surplus but the tax rates are low enough that any more tax deductions will not pay for themselves in total without further spending cuts. Most likely taxes will increase. The best thing would be to keep the taxes as they are and to cut spending slowly so when the economy naturally recovers the increased tax receipts should go to narrow the deficit until it's balanced. Once there is a surplus then the overall debt should be paid down quickly. When the debt servicing charges (interest) is reduced the surplus will be quite large and spending mixed with tax cuts can divy up the surplus each year.

After that point taxes should be increased if there are any large social programs to be implemented. That would send a signal to the public that something doesn't come from nothing and the public will most likely be more careful if they know taxes are coming up. Debt provides an illusion that you can keep taxes low and increase social programs at the same time.
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Old 03-11-2009, 10:45 PM   #43
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Are you still arguing that the right wants to eliminate government and all social programs?
Can you read at all?

Did I argue anything on this thread? Are you imagining things?

I stated that I found your comment about haves and have nots to be callous and that it told me all I need to know about you. Everything else you keep ranting about is some figment of your imagination.
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Old 03-12-2009, 07:09 PM   #44
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Are you still arguing that the right wants to eliminate government and all social programs? Nobody is arguing that safety nets have to be done away with.
But you will often hear neo-conservatives call for cutbacks in social spending, while you will never hear them call for cutbacks in military expenditure. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that neo-conservatives are involved in exploiting the poor as people from underpriviledged backgrounds disproportionately sign up for the military to fight the neo-conservatives' oil wars.

I do agree with you that the left patronises the poor with welfare programs which are often counterproductive.
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Old 03-12-2009, 09:27 PM   #45
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Most who join are'nt looking for war. They're looking for a chance in life. A way out of a place that offers little hope of a good job. And some proudly join to serve their country.
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